You don't have to go down into my basement...
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22-06-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(22-06-2015 01:32 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  Yep. I get it.
As a believer, ones ethnicity, gender, intelligence, social status, education, economic degree, or health, should be secondary. That's not to say that what you find important to your sense of self or your life should be less important, but that your faith should be more important. If you take my meaning.

Says the white guy, lol.

I was reading a commenter on the Charleston shooting, who declared that she was a black woman first, and a Christian second, and that remark pissed off a number of people, but I sympathized with it. If you lived among different christians, you’d see that their own relationship and understanding of christianity is shaped by who they are, their experiences, their gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc.. At the time of slavery and segregation, the white churches and black churches were entirely different beast, and if you think they’ve become one and the same just because they all agree now that slavery and segregation is wrong, you’d be fooling yourself. The black theologian James Cone calls for us to recognize the cross in the lynching tree, a point lost to his white readers, but recognized by his black ones.

A white slave owner might say to his slaves that faith is more important than their slavery, than their oppression, than their blackness, while the slave would recognize that faith is an outgrowth and aspect of that condition as well. It’s a part of their oppression and tragic condition, an aspect of their hope and strength.

Of course I’m not saying here that my life is more important than my faith, but that life defines much more about who I am, than my faith does, a predicament that’s little to do with choice on my part. And i’d say that perhaps this is as much true for me, as it is for you, though you might deny it.

Quote:You are understanding, on a level, that the atheist is not a nemesis of the believer in Christ.
Never has been.

This is perhaps a part of the problem, when we try to throw folks we barely know, who we meet on the internet, into our preconceived boxes. I become a caricatures of others christians you’ve encountered. I don’t view atheism as my nemesis, I don’t even have a problem with atheism in general, or believe it to be eroding or detrimental to a functioning society. If I do feel derision for any particularly atheists, it’s not brought along by their disbelief. They could be a believer and I’d likely feel the same way. And even this derision for some, doesn’t mean that I don’t like them either. I can’t stand morondog, but I also like him—one scoundrel feeling affection for another one.

Quote:Yeah but that's just the world and speaks to all of us equally.
From a faith based viewpoint all movement, in this venue by you, is lateral. No one stays satisfied with lateral.

When I say I’m believer, I’m only saying it in the sense that I believe in the truth, or the validity of thing I believe in. I’m not particularly saying something of who I am, in the same way that you might be when referring to yourself as a believer. Perhaps it would be accurate to say then that I’m not a man of faith. If Christ appeared before me and asked that I take up a cross and follow em, i’d be the first to say that he is right, and also tell him that he is on his own, perhaps even mock him too. And you can remind me that’s not a very christian thing for you to say, but I’d remind you that though I may hold Christianity as true, I haven’t submitted to it. I may just go on living defiant and rebellious, but I just can’t plead ignorance.
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22-06-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
Tomasia Wrote:Says the white guy, lol.
You didn't choose your ethnicity.
I didn't choose mine.

Want a tissue?

Tomasia Wrote:The black theologian James Cone calls for us to recognize the cross in the lynching tree, a point lost to his white readers, but recognized by his black ones.
Oh Do Tell!!
My!! It must be quite something to possibly be related to the only folks on earth who have ever been unjustly treated!

Want a tissue?

Tomasia Wrote:This is perhaps a part of the problem, when we try to throw folks we barely know, who we meet on the internet, into our preconceived boxes. I become a caricatures of others christians you’ve encountered. I don’t view atheism as my nemesis, I don’t even have a problem with atheism in general, or believe it to be eroding or detrimental to a functioning society.

This will be the third time That I commend you on your stance. Citing the difference between my usual encounters. LOL You're so busy playing the weird racist stuff, that you don't see it. Unless of course, you are so entrenched that neither criticism or praise counts from a "white guy".

Tomasia Wrote:... If Christ appeared before me and asked that I take up a cross and follow em, i’d be the first to say that he is right, and also tell him that he is on his own, perhaps even mock him too. And you can remind me that’s not a very christian thing for you to say, but I’d remind you that though I may hold Christianity as true, I haven’t submitted to it. I may just go on living defiant and rebellious, but I just can’t plead ignorance.
Au Contraire! That sums up being a christian, perfectly.

Yeah. And finally this;

Tomasia Wrote:A white slave owner might say to his slaves that faith is more important than their slavery, than their oppression, than their blackness...

You'll not squeeze any white guilt from me.

There are plenty of lesser men whom will be squeezed for endless pints of satisfaction for you.
Of course, it's always a lesser man who does the squeezing.

And that is a judgement. Bangin

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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23-06-2015, 05:37 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(18-06-2015 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now, let ask a question if I took your summary of Christian beliefs to any group of random theists:

"God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished."

Do you think most of them would agree with it?

Rather than worrying what a hypothetical group of random Christians might think, what are your thoughts on the matter? Why is Jenny's summary not apt?
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23-06-2015, 06:09 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(23-06-2015 05:37 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now, let ask a question if I took your summary of Christian beliefs to any group of random theists:

"God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished."

Do you think most of them would agree with it?

Rather than worrying what a hypothetical group of random Christians might think, what are your thoughts on the matter? Why is Jenny's summary not apt?

Because my sweet baby Jesus only wants kisses and cuddles, not nasty axe-wielding barbarism. Except when people contradict me.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-06-2015, 07:47 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2015 12:32 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(23-06-2015 05:37 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now, let ask a question if I took your summary of Christian beliefs to any group of random theists:

"God wants us to worship Him. God is not happy when we don't. God will punish us with eternal hellfire if we choose to ignore Him. God sent Jesus to cover our sins and punished him in our place. And if we pay attention to God, He will be happy, and we are saved, if we don't we are punished."

Do you think most of them would agree with it?

Rather than worrying what a hypothetical group of random Christians might think, what are your thoughts on the matter? Why is Jenny's summary not apt?

Well for starters, to claim that the Gospel is about getting people to worship God, would be wrong, in fact they shared a low view of idle praise, "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.". It's the condition of man's heart that's center stage in the gospel, not worship, and a condition illustrated in what accumulated in the crucifixion of Jesus. And this condition is not one seen exclusively in relationship with God, but with others as well, in relationship to the poor, and the oppressed (Matt 25), in one’s neighbor (Matt 22). There’s a parallel here. To speak of one without the other, is to speak of something else all together. Forgiveness of God, predicated on Forgiveness of others. Love as a fulfillment of the law. That the love of God is like unto the Love of others, is to be close to eternal life. That those who remain in love remain in God, etc…

If you’re offering a summary of the gospels, that doesn’t incorporate these fundamental aspects, than you’re only speaking in strawman and caricatures, a series of crude campaign slogans and ads.

Secondly, the part where Jenny and Barker attempt to speak confidently about one particular atonement theology, reveals a lack of recognition that all atonement theologies are incomplete. The Gospels has almost nothing to say about the mechanics of atonement. That early christians recognized various atonement theologies as less than literal, as a more of means of creating analogies. Even Anselm who gave rise to the various satisfaction theories of Atonement, acknowledge that the "how" is not clear, while acknowledging an observation of the effect, that it worked. The analogy here would be, if a certain member of a tribe found some herbal plant, that cured an ailment that was affecting his community. He and others can acknowledge that that plant worked by the observations of the effect, while acknowledge that they don’t know how it works, that the how is not clear to them. That they don’t know much of anything about the specific properties of the plant, or how it interacts with the immune system: the mechanical parts here, but they know that it works. This particular lack of clarity in regards to how the atonement, is not only acknowledge by Anselm, but also by the Catholic church, and variety of other christians traditions.

And it’s primarily certain fundie evangelical traditions, dependent on literal understanding, who distort the early understanding of atonement, the traditional lack of certainty here, who develop atonement theologies into these vast systems, alluding to the operating mechanics behind it. This is not true for all fundie evangelical traditions, the non-denominational movement as a whole, is for more open to incorporating a variety of views, rather than just one, to acknowledge some degree of certainty. Something with the catholic church has often commended.



So where does this uncertainty, this lack of a clear atonement theology, a clear “how” leave us? It leaves us in predicament where we can only truly have meaningful conversation about the effect, how death can draw us close to others, how forgiveness can heal a wound, how love can reconcile a broken relationship, how grace can welcome us into a new life, etc.. We can talk of the effect a great deal, find all sorts of parallels in our relationship and our history with others to relate to here, perhaps even peer into the how a bit, though we’d always be seeing through a glass darkly.
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23-06-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(22-06-2015 04:58 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  You didn't choose your ethnicity.
I didn't choose mine.

Of course you didn’t. Just like I didn’t choose my gender, or upbringing, or my socioeconomic factors as a child. I’m just a product of these factors. But they are aspects of my identify nonetheless. They are also aspects that color our perceptions of the world, of others, whether we like it or not. While the idea of putting your religious identify first, and these others aspects of you identify as second, might sound nice, it’s not really possible, more fiction than anything else.


Quote:You'll not squeeze any white guilt from me.

There are plenty of lesser men whom will be squeezed for endless pints of satisfaction for you. Of course, it's always a lesser man who does the squeezing.
….
You're so busy playing the weird racist stuff, that you don't see it. Unless of course, you are so entrenched that neither criticism or praise counts from a "white guy”….

Uhm, this is perhaps where I should tell you that I’m not black. I’m south asian. My use of black and white here, were primarily for illustrative purposes, and also because they are likely to be our most recognizable dichotomies. I don’t think I’ve said anything particularly racist here, and I for sure didn’t try to squeeze white guilt out of you.

But I am curious as to why you’re offended by the notion of squeezing guilt from the lynching tree, while subscribing to a religion that attempts to squeeze guilt out of the cross?

All I’m pointing out is that being white, or black, or male, or female, or poor, or rich, among the ruling class, or among the oppressed class, is a significant aspect in how we see the world, and others, including our relationship to our religions. I’m likely to have more in common with a hindu, or muslim man of south asian descent, than with a white christian. None of this is a matter of choice of course, it’s just a matter of those shared experiences that shape us as persons. None of it can be discarded, untied by us, they’re too fundamental of a part of who we are. I can likely gleam more about you, from your ethnic and socioeconomic background, than by which religion you belong to.

Quote:This will be the third time That I commend you on your stance. Unless of course, you are so entrenched that neither criticism or praise counts from a "white guy”.

No, I acknowledge your praise, though it came with bit of condescendence, but I’m primarily addressing some of your criticisms. I don't think I'm doing this with any real antagonism towards you either. I'm sure you're a swell guy.
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23-06-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
(23-06-2015 07:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well for starters, to claim that the Gospel is about getting people to worship God, would be wrong, in fact they shared a low view of idle praise, "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.". It's the condition of man's heart that's center stage in the gospel, not worship, and a condition illustrated in what accumulated in the crucifixion of Jesus. And this condition is not one seen exclusively in relationship with God, but with others as well, in relationship to the poor, and the oppressed (Matt 25), in one’s neighbor (Matt 22). There’s a parallel here. To speak of one without the other, is to speak of something else all together. Forgiveness of God, predicated on Forgiveness of others. Love as a fulfillment of the law. That the love of God is like unto the Love of others, is to be close to eternal life. That those who remain in love remain in God, etc…

If you’re offering a summary of the gospels, that doesn’t incorporate these fundamental aspects, than you’re only speaking in strawman and caricatures, a series of crude campaign slogans and ads.

So, loving others is the most important thing?


(23-06-2015 07:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Secondly, the part where Jenny and Barker attempt to speak confidently about one particular atonement theology, reveals a lack of recognition that all atonement theologies are incomplete. The Gospels has almost nothing to say about the mechanics of atonement. That early christians recognized various atonement theologies as less than literal, as a more of means of creating analogies. Even Anselm who gave rise to the various satisfaction theories of Atonement, acknowledge that the "how" is not clear, while acknowledging an observation of the effect, that it worked. The analogy here would be, if a certain member of a tribe found some herbal plant, that cured an ailment that was affecting his community. He and others can acknowledge that that plant worked by the observations of the effect, while acknowledge that they don’t know how it works, that the how is not clear to them. That they don’t know much of anything about the specific properties of the plant, or how it interacts with the immune system: the mechanical parts here, but they know that it works. This particular lack of clarity in regards to how the atonement, is not only acknowledge by Anselm, but also by the Catholic church, and variety of other christians traditions.

And it’s primarily certain fundie evangelical traditions, dependent on literal understanding, who distort the early understanding of atonement, the traditional lack of certainty here, who develop atonement theologies into these vast systems, alluding to the operating mechanics behind it. This is not true for all fundie evangelical traditions, the non-denominational movement as a whole, is for more open to incorporating a variety of views, rather than just one, to acknowledge some degree of certainty. Something with the catholic church has often commended.


So where does this uncertainty, this lack of a clear atonement theology, a clear “how” leave us? It leaves us in predicament where we can only truly have meaningful conversation about the effect, how death can draw us close to others, how forgiveness can heal a wound, how love can reconcile a broken relationship, how grace can welcome us into a new life, etc.. We can talk of the effect a great deal, find all sorts of parallels in our relationship and our history with others to relate to here, perhaps even peer into the how a bit, though we’d always be seeing through a glass darkly.

Do you believe in heaven and hell? If so, what do you think separates those who go to one place or the other?
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24-06-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: You don't have to go down into my basement...
Tomasia Wrote:Uhm, this is perhaps where I should tell you that I’m not black. I’m south asian. My use of black and white here, were primarily for illustrative purposes, and also because they are likely to be our most recognizable dichotomies. I don’t think I’ve said anything particularly racist here, and I for sure didn’t try to squeeze white guilt out of you.

Yeeaahhh....
You introduced ethnicity. Not me. Remember? "white males,...ethnic minority,...brown lens,...the palette of the white experience..." Do you recall? It was only a page or so ago. If you like, I'll source it for you;
[SOURCE]

Now in response to this yip-yapping, I said,

Kestrel Wrote:Yep. I get it.
As a believer, ones ethnicity, gender, intelligence, social status, education, economic degree, or health, should be secondary. That's not to say that what you find important to your sense of self or your life should be less important, but that your faith should be more important. If you take my meaning.

Guess you didn't take my meaning after all.
Since you're a christian, allow me to phrase it differently,

(Gal 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Let's see... You, as an after-the-fact self declared South Asian, used examples of a quote from a black woman, segregation, slavery, white and black churches, a black theologian, a mildly interesting yet staggeringly inaccurate lynching tree analogy and an example of white slave owner/black slave dynamic.

You say you were attempting to be illustrative. Next time, preface your illustrations with same declaration. If you feel that using a South Asian example would be beyond my experience or knowledge, then by my simple action of opening another tab within my browser onto Al Gore's Amazing Internet, I would have researched and understood your point. Failing that, hell, I would just ask ya.

In an effort to be a kinder, gentler Kestrel, I extend to you the benefit of the doubt, that your post was not intentionally misleading but rather unfortunately formed.

Understand that I am a BIG proponent of judging a person, (stop me if you've heard this), by the content of their character.

All that being said, whether your post was determined or happenstance, I stand by my response.

You sow it, you reap it.

I'm willing to let this "race" thing end here if you are.
I am well prepared to discuss it further, should you choose.

Drinking Beverage

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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