You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
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29-01-2014, 11:36 PM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(29-01-2014 11:32 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Great video. Thanks.
You're welcome. I can recommend the entirety of Carl Sagan's TV series "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" to you if you liked that video.

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29-01-2014, 11:44 PM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
Citation for this sutta?


Point of information: wiki articles on Buddhism tend to be heavily influenced by the woo-filled sects.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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29-01-2014, 11:50 PM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(29-01-2014 11:44 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Citation for this sutta?


Point of information: wiki articles on Buddhism tend to be heavily influenced by the woo-filled sects.

Start reading from #39...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/....bodh.html
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30-01-2014, 12:40 AM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
Thanks.

The Buddha used a lot of extant mythology (including contemporary karma-and-reincarnation beliefs) as illustrative teaching tools, especially relating the various "gods" and/or "realms" he would describe to mental states. From a quick scan of the section you cited, it appears to me on first blush that this is what he is doing there. It might be useful to bear in mind that the translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, is an "evangelical" karma/reincarnation-believer who actively skews his translations with language that incorporates his reincarnation-belief spin. One example is his constant mistranslation of the Pali to the word "re-born", when the actual Pali word (jati) meant "born". Also, much of the Digha appears to reflect later influences than the Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas, and some of it is rather suspect.

Wikipedia is a LOUSY place to try to learn anything about Buddhism. Way too many woo-meisters (mahayanists, abhidhammists,and tibetan-religion-types) throwing in their beloved superstitious woo), and not much reference to the Buddha's own "secular" teachings.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-01-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(30-01-2014 12:40 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Thanks.

The Buddha used a lot of extant mythology (including contemporary karma-and-reincarnation beliefs) as illustrative teaching tools, especially relating the various "gods" and/or "realms" he would describe to mental states. From a quick scan of the section you cited, it appears to me on first blush that this is what he is doing there. It might be useful to bear in mind that the translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, is an "evangelical" karma/reincarnation-believer who actively skews his translations with language that incorporates his reincarnation-belief spin. One example is his constant mistranslation of the Pali to the word "re-born", when the actual Pali word (jati) meant "born". Also, much of the Digha appears to reflect later influences than the Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas, and some of it is rather suspect.

Wikipedia is a LOUSY place to try to learn anything about Buddhism. Way too many woo-meisters (mahayanists, abhidhammists,and tibetan-religion-types) throwing in their beloved superstitious woo), and not much reference to the Buddha's own "secular" teachings.

I wasn't reading wiki to learn about Buddhism; I was linking to that particular section of the article from a mythology-based article that I recently expanded. I've actually never heard of that sutta before. I only happened to find the translation on google just prior to your first post.

I wouldn't necessarily view those sects you named as woo-meisters. You have to view each on their own terms as far as their impact on the cultures where they spread are concerned. Mahayana Buddhism is one of the most popular forms of Buddhism across East Asia. It had a great impact on philosophy and art. I actually find the pantheon to be quite interesting, especially since various devas and bodhisattvas are characters in my favorite classic novels.
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30-01-2014, 01:11 AM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2014 12:41 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(30-01-2014 12:49 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(30-01-2014 12:40 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Thanks.

The Buddha used a lot of extant mythology (including contemporary karma-and-reincarnation beliefs) as illustrative teaching tools, especially relating the various "gods" and/or "realms" he would describe to mental states. From a quick scan of the section you cited, it appears to me on first blush that this is what he is doing there. It might be useful to bear in mind that the translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, is an "evangelical" karma/reincarnation-believer who actively skews his translations with language that incorporates his reincarnation-belief spin. One example is his constant mistranslation of the Pali to the word "re-born", when the actual Pali word (jati) meant "born". Also, much of the Digha appears to reflect later influences than the Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas, and some of it is rather suspect.

Wikipedia is a LOUSY place to try to learn anything about Buddhism. Way too many woo-meisters (mahayanists, abhidhammists,and tibetan-religion-types) throwing in their beloved superstitious woo), and not much reference to the Buddha's own "secular" teachings.

I wasn't reading wiki to learn about Buddhism; I was linking to that particular section of the article from a mythology-based article that I recently expanded. I've actually never heard of that sutta before. I only happened to find the translation on google just prior to your first post.

OK. Be aware that there is another Brahmajala Sutta, the mahayanist one, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the one in the Digha and which was written some thousand years after the Buddha's death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_...ahayana%29



Quote:I wouldn't necessarily view those sects you named as woo-meisters.

You would if you knew what I know.

Quote:You have to view each on their own terms as far as their impact on the cultures where they spread are concerned. Mahayana Buddhism is one of the most popular forms of Buddhism across East Asia. It had a great impact on philosophy and art. I actually find the pantheon to be quite interesting, especially since various devas and bodhisattvas are characters in my favorite classic novels.

None of that really has any bearing on the woo aspect, though.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-01-2014, 01:26 AM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(30-01-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  OK. Be aware that there is another Brahmajala Sutta, the mahayanist one, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the one in the Digha adn which was written some thousand years after the Buddha's death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_...ahayana%29

Thanks.

Quote:You would if you knew what I know.

I'm viewing the subject from a historical and anthropological standpoint. The historical cultural view of these sects and the importance of them to the people of East Asia is not something that should be brushed aside. I think maybe I would understand your viewpoint if you shared what you are thinking of.

Quote:None of that really has any bearing on the woo aspect, though.

Of course it does. You have to accept that religions change as they take on flavors from other cultures. Buddhism changed as it spread east; it became more of a savior religion full of gods and demons. Savior religions are easy, just ask Christians. They may be a perversion of the Buddha's original teachings, but they still have merit in the eyes of their practitioners. This is what cultural relativism teaches.
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30-01-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
I did share my view in post #14.


What you are actually talking about is Brahmanist/Vedic cosmology.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-01-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(30-01-2014 08:30 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I did share my view in post #14.

What you are actually talking about is Brahmanist/Vedic cosmology.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I thought maybe there was something else. Later Buddhism absorbed Brahmanist/Vedic cosmology into its pantheon, thus becoming Buddhist cosmology. Again, each has their own cultural merit.

Anyway, I think this thread has gotten off track. It somehow transformed from one highlighting the funny similarities between two religious mythologies to a discussion about historical Buddhist doctrine and the merits (or lack there of) of later sects.
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30-01-2014, 11:46 PM
RE: You gotta love Buddhist cosmology
(30-01-2014 12:40 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Thanks.

The Buddha used a lot of extant mythology (including contemporary karma-and-reincarnation beliefs) as illustrative teaching tools, especially relating the various "gods" and/or "realms" he would describe to mental states. From a quick scan of the section you cited, it appears to me on first blush that this is what he is doing there. It might be useful to bear in mind that the translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, is an "evangelical" karma/reincarnation-believer who actively skews his translations with language that incorporates his reincarnation-belief spin. One example is his constant mistranslation of the Pali to the word "re-born", when the actual Pali word (jati) meant "born". Also, much of the Digha appears to reflect later influences than the Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas, and some of it is rather suspect.

Wikipedia is a LOUSY place to try to learn anything about Buddhism. Way too many woo-meisters (mahayanists, abhidhammists,and tibetan-religion-types) throwing in their beloved superstitious woo), and not much reference to the Buddha's own "secular" teachings.

Thank you for your helpful comments in this thread Taqiyya Mockingbird. It is often misunderstood that the Buddha originally taught superstitious beliefs, and this is not true. He did, as you said, use these beliefs as an illustrating teaching tool (in other words he adapted the beliefs of other cultures to explain his points to those particular students who held those cultural beliefs). His teachings were actually secular. He had no concern for the supernatural or any kind of afterlife. Those things were added to Buddhism by the different cultures that adopted Buddhism and added their own spiritual beliefs into it.

I think an excellent anecdote that I read is this:

The Buddha was asked "What have you gained from meditation?"
The Buddha replied "Nothing! However, let me tell you what I have lost: anger, anxiety, depression, insecurity, fear of old age and death."

That is the true purpose of the teachings of the Buddha: to be able to rid ourselves of the negatives in our lives, and by doing so, achieve personal happiness. The Buddha taught all of his students differently though. This is because he adapted his style of teaching to each individual student because not everybody learns the same way (this included a person's cultural beliefs, as Taqiyya Mockingbird stated). He also taught that there is no one true path to happiness. We all must find our own path. He taught that to find truth a person is to question everything, including his teachings.
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