You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
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04-12-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(29-11-2016 08:32 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  But I still love you.

Translated: "Be reasonable, see it my way!" [Image: cranky.gif]
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04-12-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 08:12 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(04-12-2016 07:01 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Then why do I still have a cool head?

I have found that the people with the least idea what they're talking about are often the most difficult to reach with reason. This is because they don't even know enough to realize they've been trounced.

I have been deliberately avoiding this conversation because they tend to make me incredibly upset and more mean-spirited than my usual self.

So with that, I will simply start by reiterating what the others have said: that you have no idea what you're talking about, CW, with regard to the prison system and the concept of rehabilitation.

Child molesters and other sexual predators of that sort have high recidivism rates because they suffer from a mental disorder. Even so, there have been significant successes in rehabilitation programs (where they have been thoughtfully applied; many such programs at the state level are outright medieval and retaliatory) for sex offenders because it, like everything else in psychology, is a sliding scale of severity in how it expresses in the individual, how deep-rooted is the pathology. For some, it is extraordinarily effective. More recent programs have focused on how to identify the irreparable and get the ones who can be helped into more appropriate, better-tailored counseling programs.

The only people in this country who qualify for death under our justice system are those who premeditate murder. Again, while some of them are of the extremely dangerous type, ones with broken minds who cannot be rehabilitated, the vast majority of killers will never commit another crime, since the situation that prompted their killing is often a result of a particular social scenario or being coached by others due to their youth and gullibility (as gang killers tend to be). The reality is that for most murderers, rehabilitation is complete and they never commit another crime... it has the lowest rate of recidivism of all crimes, with less than half committing even a minor offense (compared to ~75% for property crime convicts) within five years of being released. [ETA: Five years is considered the "danger window" for recidivism, if a person has not really changed their ways, which is why the timeframe is watched, statistically.]

But that's just looking at simple numbers. What are some of the reasons people who have been incarcerated commit new crimes? Is it because they're broken in the mind (occasionally, yes, but not usually) or because there's something else going on? We already know that most people who are convicted of crimes tend to come from poverty-stricken areas, violence-prone neighborhoods, and in general from social situations where the WASP norms the rest of us take for granted are at best a punchline. They might actually learn something about the world when dumped into the system at 17 for shooting another 17 year old who threatened them... and when released at 37-42 (20-25 year sentence), they come out to try to build a life from scratch. From zero. In a world that won't hire them (or won't hire them for good positions) because they've been conditioned to hate and fear criiiiiiiiiiiiiminals, where something as simple as a traffic stop becomes a major police operation as soon as the cops put the convict's license into their computer (you'd be let go with a warning... that guy gets a new charge, whatever the cops can come up with), and the desperation of trying to function in a world for which they are poorly prepared leads many to go back to the "easy" path of trying to get by by breaking the law.

To brush all that off as a callous, "recidivism proves that rehabilitation doesn't work" is to ignore the basic humanity of each of those men and women, which is the root cause of most of the problems in the first place.

To suggest murdering them as a means of solving a social problem, especially given that our "adversarial system" full of barely-paid, overworked Public Defenders is not known for its accuracy in determining the truth, is ... well, it's a Final Solution, n'est-ce pas?

All things that I have taken into consideration RocketSurgeon. To the last detail. The system is broken, corrupt, and its easy to say that sexual offenders have a mental disorder. But the truth of the matter is, they're just like you and me, they're normal people and they did what they did not because they have a mental disorder, but because they never thought they'd get caught. Such men can't be rehabilitated, because there was never anything wrong with them to begin with.

I know full well that poverty breeds crime, and I know that convicted felons have a very hard time reintegrating into society because of their background to the point where it is near impossible.

No crime should warrant more than a year in prison, and any sort of crime that warrants more than that regarding heinous crimes, should be put out of their misery. For if you say 20 years for murder, you're already taking their life away, because its as you said, it is exactly as you said.

As for the innocent people who are wrongfully convicted, compromising the outcome doesn't do a damned thing when we should be focusing on the source of the problem, it is far to easy to convict an innocent man or woman.
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04-12-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 11:19 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  All things that I have taken into consideration RocketSurgeon. To the last detail. The system is broken, corrupt, and its easy to say that sexual offenders have a mental disorder. But the truth of the matter is, they're just like you and me, they're normal people and they did what they did not because they have a mental disorder, but because they never thought they'd get caught. Such men can't be rehabilitated, because there was never anything wrong with them to begin with.

I know full well that poverty breeds crime, and I know that convicted felons have a very hard time reintegrating into society because of their background to the point where it is near impossible.

No crime should warrant more than a year in prison, and any sort of crime that warrants more than that regarding heinous crimes, should be put out of their misery. For if you say 20 years for murder, you're already taking their life away, because its as you said, it is exactly as you said.

As for the innocent people who are wrongfully convicted, compromising the outcome doesn't do a damned thing when we should be focusing on the source of the problem, it is far to easy to convict an innocent man or woman.

You empty headed buffoon. You just flap your gums with the first idea that comes into your head don't you? And you wonder why anyone doesn't take you seriously? Who the fuck are you to decide that no crime warrants more than a year in prison or that any "more heinous" crime - as determined by you no doubt - should merit execution?

Come on. Let's hear it. What are your qualifications? What do you know of the current prison system and the current legal system in the USA? Precisely how are they failing and why, and how will the measures you suggest improve things?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-12-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 12:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  You empty headed buffoon. You just flap your gums with the first idea that comes into your head don't you? And you wonder why anyone doesn't take you seriously? Who the fuck are you to decide that no crime warrants more than a year in prison or that any "more heinous" crime - as determined by you no doubt - should merit execution?

Come on. Let's hear it. What are your qualifications? What do you know of the current prison system and the current legal system in the USA? Precisely how are they failing and why, and how will the measures you suggest improve things?

Who the fuck am I? I'll tell you who I am, I'm a human being who understands the power to preside over life and death lays within each and every one of us you choose life, I choose death. Who are you to choose life? What are your qualifications. We bring life into this world morondog, and if we bring life into this world, we should sure as hell be ready to take life.

No crime that is not heinous deserves more than a year in prison. What point is there otherwise? Isn't prison supposed to be about rehabilitation and not punishment? Yes I am a firm believer in second chances, but only when the consequences for a failed second chance are not so costly to the well being of someone else.

Who are you morondog, to ask of others to put themselves and their loved ones in harms way just so you can live an illusion that everything is alright in the world?

The prison system in the U.S. and around the world fails all, just for the same reason why the healthcare system in the u.s. is a failure. Any system that profits off of people's suffering is going to be a dark system indeed. And how many high profile celebrities who were brought up on charges of murder, simply walked away? Casey B Anthony, OJ Simpson?

And how many police officers make up what is known as police brutality? Whether they beat homeless people to death like Kelly Thomas, a man who had a legitimate mental illness of schizophrenia, or say when officers just shoot unarmed men as is the case of Samuel Dubose? Poor Thomas, poor poor Thomas.

If officers are held accountable for their actions, less of these will happen. If lawyers and judges are held accountable for their actions, less of the guilty will walk, and less innocent people will be convicted.

If rapists and murderers are held accountable for their actions. Less people will be raped and murdered.

If prostitution and marijuana were legal, there'd be less rapes and less people in jail.

As for why they're failing... well its really simple.

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04-12-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
Someone, please take his shovel. Facepalm

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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04-12-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(29-11-2016 08:32 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  But I still love you.

Ever her the phrase 'take a long walk off a short pier'? You should try that.....

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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04-12-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 10:27 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(29-11-2016 08:32 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  But I still love you.

Ever her the phrase 'take a long walk off a short pier'? You should try that.....

Okay buuuuut...

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04-12-2016, 11:42 PM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 01:16 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(04-12-2016 12:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  You empty headed buffoon. You just flap your gums with the first idea that comes into your head don't you? And you wonder why anyone doesn't take you seriously? Who the fuck are you to decide that no crime warrants more than a year in prison or that any "more heinous" crime - as determined by you no doubt - should merit execution?

Come on. Let's hear it. What are your qualifications? What do you know of the current prison system and the current legal system in the USA? Precisely how are they failing and why, and how will the measures you suggest improve things?

Who the fuck am I? I'll tell you who I am, I'm a human being who understands the power to preside over life and death lays within each and every one of us you choose life, I choose death. Who are you to choose life? What are your qualifications. We bring life into this world morondog, and if we bring life into this world, we should sure as hell be ready to take life.

No crime that is not heinous deserves more than a year in prison. What point is there otherwise? Isn't prison supposed to be about rehabilitation and not punishment? Yes I am a firm believer in second chances, but only when the consequences for a failed second chance are not so costly to the well being of someone else.

Who are you morondog, to ask of others to put themselves and their loved ones in harms way just so you can live an illusion that everything is alright in the world?

The prison system in the U.S. and around the world fails all, just for the same reason why the healthcare system in the u.s. is a failure. Any system that profits off of people's suffering is going to be a dark system indeed. And how many high profile celebrities who were brought up on charges of murder, simply walked away? Casey B Anthony, OJ Simpson?

And how many police officers make up what is known as police brutality? Whether they beat homeless people to death like Kelly Thomas, a man who had a legitimate mental illness of schizophrenia, or say when officers just shoot unarmed men as is the case of Samuel Dubose? Poor Thomas, poor poor Thomas.

If officers are held accountable for their actions, less of these will happen. If lawyers and judges are held accountable for their actions, less of the guilty will walk, and less innocent people will be convicted.

If rapists and murderers are held accountable for their actions. Less people will be raped and murdered.

If prostitution and marijuana were legal, there'd be less rapes and less people in jail.

As for why they're failing... well its really simple.

[Image: one-hundred-100-dollar-bill.jpg]

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. You have replied to my request for specifics with empty generalities and deflections. Congratulations, you're a fucking idiot.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-12-2016, 01:08 AM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(04-12-2016 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. You have replied to my request for specifics with empty generalities and deflections. Congratulations, you're a fucking idiot.

we are all qualified to have an opinion, and I do not need a qualification for that.

So little words in reply to so many, and none of your words counter anything of mine. Your words only seek to berate me. You never asked for specifics, you asked broad questions and you got broad answers.

There is no precise reason for the failure of the judicial system, but if there were ever one thing that could be considered the most problematic. It would be the profiteering made from it.
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05-12-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: You guys are some of the most stubborn, unyielding, and bitter people I've ever met.
(05-12-2016 01:08 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  There is no precise reason for the failure of the judicial system, but if there were ever one thing that could be considered the most problematic. It would be the profiteering made from it.

First: what failure? Be specific.

Second: Evidence for the same.

Third: What profiteering?

Fourth: Evidence for the same.

Fifth: How will your proposed solution (releasing everyone below some "heinous" threshold after a year and killing everyone above the threshold) make things better?

You are aware that there are people who study crime, punishment and ethics for years? Yet you Johnny Know-Fuck-All suddenly have all the answers?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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