You know what really grinds my gears........
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26-09-2015, 09:26 AM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
For me what does it... ist he expression grinds my gears...

and more so legitimately when people refer to the year as a standard of, well it's this year so many years before the past so we shouldn't do cruel things like then. The reference of the year always just annoys me... so what if it's 2015 years since the year some monks between the years thought that Jesus was born in. The appeal to the year and time we use is absurd to the point of not being able to dismiss it everytime.

The whole pilgrimage part of the religious experience is a rather silly thing to hold up. Perhaps if they all felt it was more personal like those hippy religious folks it wouldn't be such a mass of people all viewing 1 spot as the most important one to travel too but they can have wonderful experiences all the same traveling to other destinations of wonder.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-09-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
(26-09-2015 07:16 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(26-09-2015 02:22 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  When you ask an atheist where they get their morality from, most of the time the automatic answer is "empathy".

Wondering why that is, given the last few replies. Seems to be a scarce resource.

I don't lack empathy because I'm an Atheist.

Meanwhile "kill all non-mooslims!!11!!"
or
"Gay marriage is against my religion and so nobody should get it!!11!"

And what? you think a lack of caring is unique to Atheists? How many westerners actually give a shit about this?? Serious question. Short of saying "oh that sucks" they couldn't give a flying fuck. If westerners cared about the rest of the world they might be a little more upset when foreign civilians are killed as a "causality of war" and a little less up in harms when western soldiers are killed.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said you lack empathy because you're an atheist. My point was that folks who say they arrive at their morality through empathy -- which is many, but by no means all, atheists -- well, I'd expect to see that empathy in a time like this. I was commenting on its absence in this thread.

As for the whole "what about other Westerners" thing, that has nothing to do with my point at all, because I'm not comparing atheists to anyone else. Justifying one's own lack of empathy by pointing to that absence in others doesn't really make sense to me, but then, I follow my own drummer.

(26-09-2015 06:36 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Hajis are a tough bunch to feel sorry about.

Yeah, clearly. And to be honest, this isn't keeping me awake at night either, not so much because they're hajis, but because they're halfway around the world and I've got bigger fish to fry closer to home.


(26-09-2015 07:25 AM)Anjele Wrote:  In a way I agree with Muffs here.

Had this number of deaths occurred due to a natural disaster or by something the victims didn't have control over, I would be more inclined to think about it on any level. To some degree this reminds me of the people who get gored or trampled when running with the bulls. The obvious decision, at least to me, is don't do it - it has the potential to be dangerous.

When you put yourself in the line of fire, don't be surprised when you get hit.

Well, I've never been comfortable in crowds, but I don't think that we go to a concert or football game expecting that the level of danger is the same as that attending running with bulls. Two entirely different things, to my mind.
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26-09-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
(26-09-2015 11:46 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(26-09-2015 07:16 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I don't lack empathy because I'm an Atheist.

Meanwhile "kill all non-mooslims!!11!!"
or
"Gay marriage is against my religion and so nobody should get it!!11!"

And what? you think a lack of caring is unique to Atheists? How many westerners actually give a shit about this?? Serious question. Short of saying "oh that sucks" they couldn't give a flying fuck. If westerners cared about the rest of the world they might be a little more upset when foreign civilians are killed as a "causality of war" and a little less up in harms when western soldiers are killed.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said you lack empathy because you're an atheist. My point was that folks who say they arrive at their morality through empathy -- which is many, but by no means all, atheists -- well, I'd expect to see that empathy in a time like this. I was commenting on its absence in this thread.

As for the whole "what about other Westerners" thing, that has nothing to do with my point at all, because I'm not comparing atheists to anyone else. Justifying one's own lack of empathy by pointing to that absence in others doesn't really make sense to me, but then, I follow my own drummer.

(26-09-2015 06:36 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Hajis are a tough bunch to feel sorry about.

Yeah, clearly. And to be honest, this isn't keeping me awake at night either, not so much because they're hajis, but because they're halfway around the world and I've got bigger fish to fry closer to home.


(26-09-2015 07:25 AM)Anjele Wrote:  In a way I agree with Muffs here.

Had this number of deaths occurred due to a natural disaster or by something the victims didn't have control over, I would be more inclined to think about it on any level. To some degree this reminds me of the people who get gored or trampled when running with the bulls. The obvious decision, at least to me, is don't do it - it has the potential to be dangerous.

When you put yourself in the line of fire, don't be surprised when you get hit.

Well, I've never been comfortable in crowds, but I don't think that we go to a concert or football game expecting that the level of danger is the same as that attending running with bulls. Two entirely different things, to my mind.

I did some Googling earlier...this isn't the first time people have been killed during this shindig. In fact, it's quite common.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_...wd_control

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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26-09-2015, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2015 12:32 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
I know it's not the first time. But when you look at the numbers of pilgrims -- roughly two million a year -- the odds of being trampled are vanishingly small. Roughly fifty millions pilgrims in those twenty-five years; 3150 deaths; about .00006% chance of being trampled.

Too small to care about, amirite?
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26-09-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
(26-09-2015 12:28 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I know it's not the first time. But when you look at the numbers of pilgrims -- roughly two million a year -- the odds of being trampled are vanishingly small. Roughly fifty millions pilgrims in those twenty-five years; 3150 deaths; about .00006% chance of being trampled.

Too small to care about, amirite?

My stance is that these people chose to put themselves in a dangerous position...

Had it been something over which they had no control whatsoever, then I would perhaps feel more about it. I am willing to help where I can in a natural disaster or something similar but these folks went there, and apparently to the front of the line, knowing that these stampedes are a real threat.

...never mind...

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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26-09-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
Actually I do know people impacted (directly and indirectly) by this.

I get what people are saying about distance. I felt the same about the Boston Bomb for example ... it offended me intellectually rather than emotionally.

But maybe I can try to make it a little more 'human' ...

For reasons we all know and find ridiculous, there are people in this region (SE Asia) who see this trip as not only an obligation (that's the silly indoctrination bit) but also as a rite of passage; desirable simply to be able to say one has done it and for the enjoyment and experience of doing it.

There's a strong emotional element to it too (one might recall how it effected Malcolm X ... positively) in that it's unifying and humbling to be with hundreds of thousands of others of equal status (that's why everyone dresses the same ... no status).

Are there any of you who have said (or heard your friends say) ... "We're going to Disneyland. I know it's horribly commercialised but ... well y'know ... it's gotta be done; at least once in your life."

Now, imagine how you would feel if Disney had the same appalling safety record... every six years or so there was a fire in the magic castle or one of the rides collapsed.

Can you imagine that? It's not so different.

If this pilgrimage was only about and for crazy fundamentalists, you've got to wonder why, after each similar disaster, the numbers have dramatically dropped. So which takes priority... dying for Allah in their holiest of places or personal safety?

Consider

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26-09-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
(26-09-2015 01:14 PM)DLJ Wrote:  There's a strong emotional element to it too (one might recall how it effected Malcolm X ... positively) in that it's unifying and humbling to be with hundreds of thousands of others of equal status (that's why everyone dresses the same ... no status).

*affected Smile

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26-09-2015, 05:27 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
(26-09-2015 12:47 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(26-09-2015 12:28 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I know it's not the first time. But when you look at the numbers of pilgrims -- roughly two million a year -- the odds of being trampled are vanishingly small. Roughly fifty millions pilgrims in those twenty-five years; 3150 deaths; about .00006% chance of being trampled.

Too small to care about, amirite?

My stance is that these people chose to put themselves in a dangerous position...

Had it been something over which they had no control whatsoever, then I would perhaps feel more about it. I am willing to help where I can in a natural disaster or something similar but these folks went there, and apparently to the front of the line, knowing that these stampedes are a real threat.

...never mind...

My point was that going by the numbers it isn't terribly dangerous, certainly not enough to send my empathy on vacation.
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26-09-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
Ummm...yeah, my empathy is frequently on vacation as is apparent I assume.

You are a better person.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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26-09-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: You know what really grinds my gears........
Shart......what a name Blink

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