"You're going to hell!"
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03-09-2011, 03:42 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
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03-09-2011, 03:52 PM
 
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Hello S.T. Ranger,

I just checked the new posts of today and on the top of the list I saw these 2 items:

"You are going to hell"

and

S.T. Ranger,

side by side.

Do you think it means anything?

Huh
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03-09-2011, 04:09 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Maybe there's a problem here (Not my computer, no idea), but your last post doesn't show up on my computer... but if I click to reply with it, I see the post in the quote boxes as normal.
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03-09-2011, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2011 04:13 PM by S.T. Ranger.)
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  Sorry if I'm missing something, but long topic. You talk almost as much as I do Tongue So, jumping in on a couple of points. Trying to keep it short, but I'm really bad at that.

Hello Sines, thanks for joining in. I think you did a great job keeping it short...lol...I have a serious problem with that.

I will do the best I can to keep my responses short, but...no promises. I only have a short time, and I would like to finish up another post.



(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  
(02-09-2011 12:46 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  I cannot explain as to why the Lord would allow this except to say, even we as humans do not abandon something we wish to accomplish because we know there will be problems.

Then perhaps your current explanation for events is wrong? If I hear a crashing noise, I might think something fell off a shelf. So, I check my closet, the cabinets, the refridgerator, etc... and there's nothing on the ground. Everything is where it was, and where it should be. I check outside. No fallen branches, nothing on the ground that wasn't there last time I went outside.

But there must have been something that fell! I just cannot explain what it was, or why I cannot find it!

Or maybe, just maybe... nothing at all fell. And maybe, just maybe, the reason Yahweh's actions don't make sense, is because they're ascribed to an entity that doesn't actually exist. Maybe they're nothing more than divine plot holes.

except to say, even we as humans do not abandon something we wish to accomplish because we know there will be problems.
[/quote]

So you imagined the noise? (<---pretty short, huh?)


(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  Of course. But do you know one of the really big differences between Yahweh and me? Yahweh is supposed to be all-powerful. A lot of christians don't seem to understand what this means. All-powerful means possessing all possible powers. All of them. Creating a world where everything goes exactly as he wants is one of the many powers contained in the set of 'all powers'.

Not quite right. God is all powerful, no question, but what the reeeeally big difference is this: God is Holy, and we are not.

God could lie, because, after all, He is God, and who is going to call Him on it? But, because of His righteous and holy character, which is not something He has to work at, it is just a fact, He cannot after all, lie.




(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  I go skiing, acknowledging that sometimes I'll hurt myself, or get stuck on chairlifts for 10 minutes. I do it because the benefits outweigh the problems.


Another good illustration in example for why God, despite knowing that man would fall in sin, went ahead with the project anyway.


(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  But Yahweh doesn't have to settle for second best. He knows everything, and he can do everything. Things should go exactly the way he wants every single time. With no deviations. Not a single electron out of place. For Yahweh to do something, knowing there will be problems, doesn't make sense.


Actually, second best would be an improvement in my view...lol.

He has to settle for us.

What is being proposed here is that God should have, rather than creating man, created more little gods. In theory it would have been possible, we see a nearness to "gods" in Angels, and it is my belief that fallen angels are actually the many gods of this world.

I refer back to the puppy illustration. I think it is a good example as to why God created man, and then allowed him to fall into sin. He could have stopped Adam, but since we are speculating, have you ever thought that Adam's decision to eat may have been because he loved Eve?

It is not impossible that he took the position that he would not let Eve suffer the consequences...alone. God did build a few good qualities in man, after all.

Good, not perfect.



(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  Either he desires those bumps in the road (And considering some of those bumps are vast human suffering, that would make him evil),

There is no question that God allows certain bad things for the express purpose of edifying the subject. Sometimes a bad thing that happens keeps a worse thing from happening.

I am sure there have been many who have tried skiing only to break a leg. They then quit skiing avoiding a broken neck. Poor illustration but I am in a hurry.

(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  or he is an utter fool for forgetting that he can fix the problems with less than a wave of his hand.

If God's instruction to man is rebelled against, why is it thought that His being a puppeteer is the solution?


(03-09-2011 03:30 PM)Sines Wrote:  I cannot comprehend how difficult it is for Christians to forget what all-powerful means. It's not a complex or subtle word. It means Yahweh can do ANYTHING. Period.

Not according to scripture.

He cannot violate His holy and righteous character. To let evil go unpunished would do so. What is asked for is a god that will allow his children to do whatever they want, a god that has no sense of justice.

The truth is, there are gods out there like that. Mankind has been creating God in there own image for quite a while now.

Sorry for the short response (in length I mean, I hope nothing here offends),

S.T.
(03-09-2011 04:09 PM)Sines Wrote:  Maybe there's a problem here (Not my computer, no idea), but your last post doesn't show up on my computer... but if I click to reply with it, I see the post in the quote boxes as normal.

I know. Stark said he is trying to correct that.

I was surprised to see my last post come up.

S.T.
(03-09-2011 03:52 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Hello S.T. Ranger,

I just checked the new posts of today and on the top of the list I saw these 2 items:

"You are going to hell"

and

S.T. Ranger,

side by side.

Do you think it means anything?

Huh

That has not gone unnoticed. Pretty convenient, I'd say. I thought it might tickle someone.

I guess what it means is that my posts somehow are not being posted...do you think maybe Satan doesn't want them to be shown? Please get back to me soon, and let me know.

Thanks in advance,

S.T.
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03-09-2011, 04:25 PM
 
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(03-09-2011 04:09 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  That has not gone unnoticed. Pretty convenient, I'd say. I thought it might tickle someone.

I guess what it means is that my posts somehow are not being posted...do you think maybe Satan doesn't want them to be shown? Please get back to me soon, and let me know.

They say that the devil never sleeps.

On the other hand, you are always here.

S.T.R. -- are you in disguise???

Dodgy
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03-09-2011, 04:36 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Ugh, you respond in a way that's kind of messy to respond to in post. No offense, but it's just not the kind of thing that's simple enough to reply to without talking in person (Or at least over the phone or similar).

Anyway. Yahweh can't do evil stuff. Well, yah, that's the problem isn't it?

Your arguments seem to boil down to the free will argument. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to continue from that understanding (This is what I mean by having trouble arguing post-by-post).

So, free-will. Here's the thing. Yahweh made us. He made us with desires, with dislikes, with all of our good and evil nature. But Yahweh didn't have restrictions when he made us, being all powerful and all. He could have made us as 7-dimensional ardvarks, with a great enjoyment of (In the best approximation I can make of their language) Graxilplx. He could have created things that had no dimensions whatsoever! Beings for whom the concept of space is as inconceivable as the notion of a seventh dimension is to us.

So, when we were created, we didn't HAVE to have any desire to sin, to do evil, to do anything Yahweh didn't like. We could still have free-will, but our desires would be different. He could have created beings that greatly enjoy serving him, and that have absolutely no desire to defy him. Adam and Eve still could have defied Yahweh, but why should they want to?

Clearly, you have no problem with Yahweh designing us with impulses to do good. After all, most humans are empathetic persons who want to help their fellow man. So what would be wrong if we were designed with desires only to do good, and a sense of personal disgust at every action of evil?

To put it in perspective, think about jamming a knife in your eye. Why don't you do it? Well, partially, because it will hinder you in the future (leaving you short one eye, or dead from blood loss). But that's probably not the biggest reason. The biggest reason, is that it will hurt immeasurably. Even thinking about it gives me the heebie-jeebies. So I don't do it. Not only is the idea unpleasent, but the long term affects are also unpleasent.

So, why is having rampant sex desirable? Why is lying preferable in many cases? Why was that fruit more tempting than obeying Yahweh? Why did he not make it so that those actions are just as unpalatable as shoving a knife in our eye? He would not mind control us so that we don't do them, we would choose not to of our own volition. We would be no more automatons than we are now (Not that I believe in free will, but that's an argument for another time, all I'm saying is that there is no fundamental difference between the two options), and Yahweh would be happier with the results.

Besides, back to my earlier statement about what all-powerful means...

"Create human beings, with free will, and the ability to disobey me, but guarantee that they will not, of their own volition, due to my reasoned argument about why they should not, and that we will all be happier if they so chose to love me, and live with me. They will agree with me, because I designed them with enough intelligence that they will understand why what I desire is in the best interest of all of us," is yet another power that falls into the rather large umbrella category of 'all powers'.

Humans can manipulate other humans to do what they want. Why can't Yahweh? He's a better debater than any human. He has a greater command of the facts than any human. Even without using a single power, he will be able to convince any reasonable person (And all but the most absolutely insane irrational people) of any given truth.
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03-09-2011, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2011 04:48 PM by S.T. Ranger.)
RE: "You're going to hell!"
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03-09-2011, 05:49 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
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03-09-2011, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2011 07:29 PM by nontheocrat.)
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Quick point, if my child offends me, betrays me, denies me, breaks my rules or refuses to love me. I can forgive her without a sacrifice or anyone dying. That makes me more holy and more moral than the god of the Bible.

If I had gods morals I would lock her in the basement and torture her forever for not doing exactly what I want.

Don't give me meaningless arguments about god being limited by his "holy rightous" nature. I call BS!
Now that I think about it a better analogy for the Christian god's morality is to kill my son who didn't offend me in order to forgive my daughter who did. I can't think of a more immoral monster.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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03-09-2011, 08:02 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
S.T. Ranger Wrote:What have I presumed?

Does man live in risk of being subjected to the rule of mosquitoes?

But, lets not forget that man not what he was intended to be. This is a result of the fall in my position. So in a sense, we actually agree that man is not superior in the sense of being what God intended, but, I would go back to the question of whether you place man's value above that of animals. Would you have to think twice about who would die if you had to choose between a man and animal. That will give me better insight to where you stand.
I'm saying that the power struggle is never one sided by the mosquito reference.
I would determine the need general by the level of need to be saved. I'm not going to rate a human above any other life. I might place someone close to me (of any species) above a stranger, but that is a completely different context.

S.T. Ranger Wrote:The heart of a soldier (as well as a policeman, fireman, etc.) is to do exactly that: place himself and his life in harm's way for someone else.

Even humanity retains this characteristic. Would they also be charged as being "horrid" in their thinking?

Whether you stop talking to me is your choice, but the reason given makes little sense to me. How you feel I "have a diminutive view of life" I cannot imagine.
You fail to understand what scapegoating is. Self sacrifice is wholly different than ritual sacrifice. Placing your sins in a living organism and killing it for instance the jewish ritual with chickens. To sacrifice things in atonement is in no way taking any blame upon yourself.

S.T. Ranger Wrote:Please show me how I am guilty of double talk.

Looking back over the quotes (which is laborious due to your difficulty with posting) I see that after your contradictory statement there was an explanation so sorry for not catching it previously. (I had saved it to wordpad to read easier too....)

And I am not baiting you by asking your opinion. I'm talking with you and continuing to personalize you in my mind. The issue of things like intersex and even homosexuality play a huge role in my life. I also am a public speaker on these topics. i am not looking for a certain answer or planning a already decided response. I am asking, I ask everyone.

I think if you want to talk here you might need to take a step back. You are (probably) a bit overwhelmed with the feedback and it seems your posts are deteriorating in clarity. That's pretty common when you're in the spotlight. I'm sorry if you think I was not trying to answer your questions. I answered most of them right off the bat and some of these later ones I haven't answered yet but both of us still have loose ends currently. When you address so many points at once (which I am doing in order to keep up with you) the discussion becomes really difficult. We might talk better if we tone it down a bit, and I brought up my topics because there were many things being discussed and it's a central point to one of my oppositions of christianity which you asked.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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