"You're going to hell!"
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16-08-2011, 05:07 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(15-08-2011 03:02 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  
(15-08-2011 01:52 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Perhaps we need some form of compromise when it comes to those infernal eternal questions. Angel
What is Eternity but the absence of Time, which has physical characteristics, like being affected by gravity. Time is interwoven within the creation itself. The bible states that God exists outside the creation, thus is eternal being outside of time.

The biblical understanding concerning the properties of time have only recently been validated through science. Hey does anybody know what time it really is? Does anyone really care...

"In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)...and said let there be light (energy)". In the beginning implies that time is not eternal, which the bible stated thousands of years ago, a claim science has finally caught up too.

If god existed outside time, in some spurious manner, I wonder why the phenomenon chose to create billions of years of chaos and for what worthwhile purpose. If 'outside time' epitomised something wonderful are you suggesting that god created time,substance, etc in order to punish factions (outside time) to bring "them" round to absolute correctness?What is the crieria for 'outside time' morality, ethics, purpose, meaning etc?Sad
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17-08-2011, 11:24 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(15-08-2011 08:25 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-08-2011 10:00 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  But it seems so mean-spirited to tell somebody that they're going to Hell.
But if you believed someone was going to Hell wouldn't it be mean-spirited not to warn him?

If I were in a good mood, the conversation might go something like this:

--You're going to hell.
--How do you know that?
--Because it says so right here in . . .
--Um . . . that's the same book that starts with the story about the talking snake, right?
--Yes, but . . .
--I think I'll take my chances. Have a nice day!

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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17-08-2011, 06:19 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(15-08-2011 08:25 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-08-2011 10:00 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  But it seems so mean-spirited to tell somebody that they're going to Hell.
But if you believed someone was going to Hell wouldn't it be mean-spirited not to warn him?


THe problem with that is a great deal of them aren't "warning" us off Hell, they're threating us with Hell.

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19-08-2011, 06:43 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(15-08-2011 08:25 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-08-2011 10:00 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  But it seems so mean-spirited to tell somebody that they're going to Hell.
But if you believed someone was going to Hell wouldn't it be mean-spirited not to warn him?

Oh hello Theo, you're here! I wondered who pressed the "like" on HBAF's comment!
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19-08-2011, 09:00 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
My reply to "You're going to hell" would be something along the lines of: "If that's the price of seeing the world for what it really is, I'll pay it gladly." Anybody has a better idea for some positive thing which is impossible with "god glasses" on?

(15-08-2011 01:18 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  Isn't believing that everything just happened by mindless, unintelligent, random chance, just as delusional as believing something greater than yourself actually created everything. Huh

That mindless, unintelligent, random chance actually has to follow pretty strict, mindless, unintelligent rules. Random chance is the means, rules are the cause.
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19-08-2011, 09:16 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(19-08-2011 09:00 AM)next_ghost Wrote:  My reply to "You're going to hell" would be something along the lines of: "If that's the price of seeing the world for what it really is, I'll pay it gladly." Anybody has a better idea for some positive thing which is impossible with "god glasses" on?

(15-08-2011 01:18 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  Isn't believing that everything just happened by mindless, unintelligent, random chance, just as delusional as believing something greater than yourself actually created everything. Huh

That mindless, unintelligent, random chance actually has to follow pretty strict, mindless, unintelligent rules. Random chance is the means, rules are the cause.

I agree with you. Also may I ask, where did I say that I believe that everything just happenes by mindless, unintelligent, random chance? While I do believe that and as next_ghost pointed out, all of that has to follow rules, I would love to know why reading The God Delusion for the 50thish time would indicate that. I know a Jew that has read alot of Sagans books due to pure interest in the topics within them. He doesn't believe most of it but he still reads it none the less.

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21-08-2011, 10:05 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
So, you can quote a few verses that show they understood evaporation. Cool. First off, those bronze age tribesmen weren't total morons. They didn't understand cosmology, but it's not unreasonable for them to observe, for example, that rain follows clouds, which often follows water disappearing. I'm not saying it's an easy or obvious observation, but certainly not one that requires divine wisdom.

On the other hand, what about every time the bible is wrong? Ludicrously wrong. You say the Earth is said to hang upon nothing? First off, it doesn't hang on nothing. It hangs on the suns gravity. That's what keeps the Earth in it's orbit. But let's ignore that, because the bible also talks about the 'corners of the earth' and the 'pillars of the earth'. Or the 'foundations of the earth'. A sphere does not have corners. If Earth has pillars, they haven't been spotted yet, and in what sense can a sphere orbiting around a star be said to have 'foundations'? It's not tied to anything.

Not to mention Genesis 1 (I believe) mentions waters existing before god created a damn thing. And what does he do with those waters? He creates a sort of bubble in it, which has a firmament (What ancient people thought the sky was, a solid dome) on top, and the land on bottom, seperating the waters. Interpret that into something remotely sane for me please.

Not to mention, that water seemed just fine existing all on it's own without god. It was 'in the beginning' after all, God wouldn't have had a chance to make the water yet. By your own theology, matter is capable of existing without god's say-so. We've clearly got protons, neutron, electrons, and their constituent particles, not to mention at least the strong force and electromagnetic force (IIRC, the weak force wouldn't change things much if it were absent, and gravity doesn't matter much at this size). Really, with the confirmed existence of matter and at least two of the four fundamental forces without gods intervention BY YOUR OWN THEOLOGY, then the idea that matter and the rules of nature existing without intelligent design is hardly as absurd as you seem to claim.
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21-08-2011, 11:35 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
I always like the observation by B.C. Johnson in his "Atheist Debater's Handbook" where he wrote:

Quote:"Another possible alternative is that God offers salvation only to atheists because God does not like being surrounded by obsequious 'yes-men'. God may prize independence and skepticism."

Of course the Christian will say that God would never delude his followers in that fashion, but the bible suggests that perhaps he might. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (RSV), "God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned..."

Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see
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22-08-2011, 01:01 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(21-08-2011 11:35 PM)Joe Bloe Wrote:  I always like the observation by B.C. Johnson in his "Atheist Debater's Handbook" where he wrote:

Quote:"Another possible alternative is that God offers salvation only to atheists because God does not like being surrounded by obsequious 'yes-men'. God may prize independence and skepticism."

Of course the Christian will say that God would never delude his followers in that fashion, but the bible suggests that perhaps he might. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (RSV), "God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned..."

Is it really neccessary to view "god" through the eyes of Judaeo/ Christianity, or any other religion for that matter? The fact that ,historically ,humanity has created a great many myths to find comfort in their despair does not prove that a god of sorts does not exist. Gods, godesses, hells and heavens are locked into man made semantics and seem to cause more harm than good.Cool
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22-08-2011, 02:19 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(22-08-2011 01:01 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Is it really neccessary to view "god" through the eyes of Judaeo/ Christianity, or any other religion for that matter? The fact that ,historically ,humanity has created a great many myths to find comfort in their despair does not prove that a god of sorts does not exist. Gods, godesses, hells and heavens are locked into man made semantics and seem to cause more harm than good.Cool

Is it really neccessary to view "god" through the eyes of Judaeo/ Christianity
It is for me, it's the only religion I know. Also, the mere fact that other religions exist does not preclude specific references to Christianity.

The fact that, historically, humanity has created a great many myths to find comfort in their despair does not prove that a god of sorts does not exist.
Not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you referring to "The Negative Way" or something else?

Rather than have an unbeliever prove that god does not exist, I think it would be more helpful if the theist proved that god DID exist. (I don't mind waiting.)

Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see
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