"You're going to hell!"
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29-08-2011, 05:46 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(28-08-2011 09:55 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  Someone asks me...

"Do you believe in god?"

I say, "no".

They ask, "Then you don't believe in hell?"

My response, "no".

They may say, "What if you're wrong?"

I just say, "Then I will burn for a billion-billion years... But at least I'll be honest."

That usually ends it.

...and sometimes it doesn't (lol).

Hi guys, tried to post a minute ago and was timed out. I will try again.

As I said in my first post, I do not believe that I can change minds, as I believe only God can change a heart.

I was impressed at this post, in which the thought of burning for "billion-billion years" is nothing to worry about. Followed by the claim that this would keep them honest, and I would just ask, what exactly do those here know about the topic of Hell?

That is a sincere question. I saw on the home page the boast that those here knew the bible better than anyone that thought about "cluttering the walls" here, and this is a remarkable thing to me.

So, I am just curious to see this great knowledge. I can expect that there may be those here that "grew up in the church" but have since, despite their association with the church, have come to a better understanding and rejected religion.

I can understand rejecting religion, I do as well, and think it will be a far worse fate in store for the religionist.

But, just a few words to introduce myself, and to say I look forward to speaking with you guys.

Understand that I do not despise atheists, as I believe many have valid reasons to reject religion, and I would make it clear that I am not an advocate of religion.

I would ask, though, that serious conversation is sought, and I would prefer to speak to people that reject God who have a basic understanding of God's word.

Don't get me wrong, I will speak to all, but if one is an atheist based upon nothing, we will not have much to disuss, unless of course, you are willing to listen to me "ramble" while I try desperately not to "cluster the walls."

Have to go, just wanted to jump in and thought that Hell is actually a pretty good subject to start with.

S.T.
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30-08-2011, 01:53 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
What i know about hell is that it's an idea that goes counter to the attitude Jesus is supposed to have been trying to spread. He's all about forgiveness and kindness; the Hell idea is all about infinite, adamant hatred. Even the god of the old testament was content to strike people dead if he disliked them; as far as i know, the worst Jesus threatened was being "cast out" - no eternal life; i.e. death. Hell was dreamed up by later, nastier, more insecure priests.

And here's the kicker: if there really were a god capable of damning his imperfect creations to eternal torment, i could fear such a deity, but could not respect, let alone worship him, and he wouldn't forgive that.... The outcome is the same, no matter what i say, so i might as well be honest.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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30-08-2011, 03:46 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Hey Hunted,

Actually believing everything is run by mindless chance is a lot more less delusional than thinking an all-powerful intelligence controls the universe because we see reinforcement of it every day. Look at accident rates, look at who gets cancer verses who does not, look at who gets hit by earthquakes, tornados, floods and hurricanes, all happen by pure blind chance. Theologians and apologists have done fits and twists trying to explain why the evil seem to prosper and the good suffer, by addressing the problem they are admitting that life deals out prosperity and famine by chance.

As a matter of fact I see absolutely no indication of intelligent design anywhere. Quantum Mechanics teaches us that random chance is responsible for the most fundamental building blocks of matter itself. So a belief in blind chance is highly rational.

BTW: I think it is funny when people tell me I'm going to hell because I know that living in their religious existence they are already in one and I'm the one who is free. Brings a smile to my face every time.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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30-08-2011, 04:22 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Hello Peterkin, thanks for the reply. It might surprise you to find that many Christians actually believe exactly as you do, and your thoughts are mirrored by theirs.

Just a few quick comments, I hope you don't mind.


(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  What i know about hell is that it's an idea that goes counter to the attitude Jesus is supposed to have been trying to spread.

Jesus actually taught more about Hell than Heaven. One of the roles that Jesus fulfilled was as a prophet, and this specifically to Israel, not because God loves Israel more than Gentiles, but to actually fulfill prophecy which was closely interwoven with promises that if God did not keep...I also would have a problem seeing God as Who scripture portrays Him as. The only reason I mention this is that within the gospels, particularly in the teaching of Jesus Himself, there is a need to distinguish between those things that have specific application to Israel, and that which has to do with the world. More on that in a bit.

Secondly, and of more importance, He came , as I am sure most here know, for the purpose of one thing...to die in the place of sinners. In His teaching he speaks of Hell quite frequently, and the reason He did so was due to the fact that this is what He came to spare man from, from a separation which man already exists in, and can be reconciled only through what He did, taking my sin upon Himself, and beyond that, imputing His righteousness to my account. It is really as simple as that.


(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  He's all about forgiveness and kindness;

He is, but think of the "kindness" that He showed to the Pharisees, and in fact, the entire established religious rule. He was not kind to those who had made the Temple a place of profit, which we see today replicated by those that would seek to scam money from those who feel they are being faithful by sending in money.

I'll be honest, I don't think there is one person here that despises these types more than I.

Bottom line, whether one is kind or not, there is a time when measures are taken that some may not think kind, but would agree that they are just. A man murders his family, for instance, would society as a whole think the proper course of action would be to be kind to this person?



(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  the Hell idea is all about infinite, adamant hatred.

Just not true. God has sent His Son that man might be saved from such a fate, at great cost to Himself. He has given His gospel and the command to obey it, and because He is merciful, which is a characteristic that far surpasses kindness, He will not fail to give every man and woman the opportunity to hear it.

(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Even the god of the old testament was content to strike people dead if he disliked them;

Believe it or not, this is a point which I have on several occasions debated with other Christians.

I am firm in my belief that temporal death imposed on man can usually be seen as a consequence of sin. But the charge is placed on God that He has at times unjustly put some to death. Part of my understanding of this also deals with what I believe concerning...and this will probably make you groan, but, the Fall of man. In life, consequences befall those that are entirely innocent, due to someone else's actions. Like a drunk driver killing someone.

(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  as far as i know, the worst Jesus threatened was being "cast out" - no eternal life;

I will not "throw scripture out" too much for now, at least not until it seems that serious consideration of what Jesus taught about casting out, and what I believe this teaching means, in regards to eternal judgment.

I will say that I can show that the full counsel of God's word particularly with the teaching of Jesus, teaches that man will be eternally separated from God if they die in their sin.

(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  i.e. death. Hell was dreamed up by later, nastier, more insecure priests.

Hell is first introduced in the New Testament, and by Jesus. In the Old Testament, sheol, the place of the dead, is the equivalent of hades, which, according to my belief (and I do not mind that being called "opinion") is best described as the "place of the dead," where man went after death. Not all Christians agree, but I am one that believes that sheol was halved, having a place for the just, and a place for the wicked. When Christ died, at this point, the just of sheol, having their sin atoned for by the death of Christ, were made acceptable to come into the presence of God.

Hell, on the other hand, is also known as the Lake of Fire. This is where, after the Great White Throne, as described in Revelation 20, those who are "dead," will be cast. In His teaching about "outer darkness," I think we can find evidence of differing degrees of torment, which is associated with Hell.


(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  And here's the kicker: if there really were a god capable of damning his imperfect creations to eternal torment, i could fear such a deity, but could not respect, let alone worship him, and he wouldn't forgive that....

It might sound funny, but I don't believe there is a peson alive that "respects" God to the point where He is glorified as He ought to be. Could God forgive such sin? Sure. There is only one sin which scripture says cannot be forgiven, and that is rejecting the gift offered by God, which is intended to save man, and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

No-one who comes to know God does so in perfect obedience and deeds, it is after salvation really that a man can begin to see himself in a different light.

But, to address this point more accurately, I have to say that God does not "damn" people, no more than a doctor would be responsible for the death of a patient that refused medical attention.

It is a choice we make, not God. Luckily, we do not have to do this apart from help from Him.

(30-08-2011 01:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  The outcome is the same, no matter what i say, so i might as well be honest.

I appreciate your honesty. Sorry this is long, I get a little longwinded at times, and for that I apologize.

If you, or anybody would like to look at what Jesus had to say about Hell, I would be glad to engage in such a discussion.

S.T.
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30-08-2011, 04:42 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(14-08-2011 10:29 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Or, more likely, you look inviting. Some people carry a forbidding expression, while others wear open-mindedness on their faces. Salesmen of every stripe are intimidated by the former, drawn to the latter.
Cultivate a scowl.*


(*Warning: it will give you wrinkles!)

An unchanging blank face with a cold stare tends to work too xD unfortunately it seems to become your default expression once you've mastered it.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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30-08-2011, 04:44 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(30-08-2011 03:46 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Hey Hunted,

Actually believing everything is run by mindless chance is a lot more less delusional than thinking an all-powerful intelligence controls the universe because we see reinforcement of it every day. Look at accident rates, look at who gets cancer verses who does not, look at who gets hit by earthquakes, tornados, floods and hurricanes, all happen by pure blind chance. Theologians and apologists have done fits and twists trying to explain why the evil seem to prosper and the good suffer, by addressing the problem they are admitting that life deals out prosperity and famine by chance.

Hello NTC, I will just ask if there are statistics that show bad things always happen to good people, and vice versa, or, can we see that this is actually as random as some would like to believe our existence is?

There are specific promises made by God that would make a charge towards Theologians and Apologists a little hollow, one such promise being, while we (believers) are in this world, we will suffer tribulation.

That is not such a great prospect, is it?

I would not altogether put all Theologians and apologists in the same boat, they are as diverse as snowflakes, and unfortunately, there are more bad ones than good ones. Of course, that is just my opinion.

But if they have taught that good and bad "things" are for one or the other, you can certainly place them on the list "to be avoided," lol.

In this life, we (all of us) can expect to have things happen, sometimes terrible things, which we are not responsible for. Now, in order for some to believe that God is "good," they would have God fulfilling a superhero character's duties, rather than Who He actually is, and how He ministers to the peoples of this world.

Now, if man had created God, rather than God creating us, we would, I believe, have done just that. At the very least, the "heros" of faith would have been a little more than how scripture describes them. Take King David, a man after God's own heart...he was a murderer and an adulterer, contrary to God's will, but, God showed mercy.

Had I written the story, it would have been a little different. Take Jonah, one who refused to do God's own will. A little embarrasing, some would think. If we had an employee that behaved as he did, I don;t think we would have published the story.





(30-08-2011 03:46 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  As a matter of fact I see absolutely no indication of intelligent design anywhere. Quantum Mechanics teaches us that random chance is responsible for the most fundamental building blocks of matter itself. So a belief in blind chance is highly rational.

To some it is. I myself have to believe what scripture says, that God has made His reality known to all man, and we can see this in the creation itself.

For me, a newborn baby is the evidence that we did not happen by chance.


(30-08-2011 03:46 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  BTW: I think it is funny when people tell me I'm going to hell because I know that living in their religious existence they are already in one and I'm the one who is free. Brings a smile to my face every time.

You will have to have patience with some "evangelists." While Hell is certainly good motivation for wanting to be saved, it is really at cross-purposes to the end result God seek for us, and that is we love Him because we want to...not because we have to.

Scripture will show in the First Covenant that God is not pleased with that kind of "love."

Even as we would not be pleased if our children did not love us beyond a "because I have to...or else" love.

Or our spouses.

God, no different than we, wants us to love Him because we want to.

I will not say that fear of Hell has no place in evangelism, as I am one that believes all teachings found in scripture are to be taught. But I will say, there are some who have no business speaking beyond their knowledge of God, and would be better off taking a different ministry.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond,

S.T.
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30-08-2011, 06:05 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(30-08-2011 04:44 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(30-08-2011 03:46 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Hey Hunted,

Actually believing everything is run by mindless chance is a lot more less delusional than thinking an all-powerful intelligence controls the universe because we see reinforcement of it every day. Look at accident rates, look at who gets cancer verses who does not, look at who gets hit by earthquakes, tornados, floods and hurricanes, all happen by pure blind chance. Theologians and apologists have done fits and twists trying to explain why the evil seem to prosper and the good suffer, by addressing the problem they are admitting that life deals out prosperity and famine by chance.

Hello NTC, I will just ask if there are statistics that show bad things always happen to good people, and vice versa, or, can we see that this is actually as random as some would like to believe our existence is?

Hello ST Ranger,

No I don't have statistics, I am speaking from my own personal experience. I spent several years (in fact grew up) in church and saw the same calamities hit people I felt to be pious and just with equal incidence to those I considered hypocrites. Whether there was some slight statistical variation in my mind is irrelevant; if an all-powerful, all-knowing being is running the show then the difference should be obvious.

(30-08-2011 04:44 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  There are specific promises made by God that would make a charge towards Theologians and Apologists a little hollow, one such promise being, while we (believers) are in this world, we will suffer tribulation.

That is not such a great prospect, is it?

I would not altogether put all Theologians and apologists in the same boat, they are as diverse as snowflakes, and unfortunately, there are more bad ones than good ones. Of course, that is just my opinion.

But if they have taught that good and bad "things" are for one or the other, you can certainly place them on the list "to be avoided," lol.

In this life, we (all of us) can expect to have things happen, sometimes terrible things, which we are not responsible for. Now, in order for some to believe that God is "good," they would have God fulfilling a superhero character's duties, rather than Who He actually is, and how He ministers to the peoples of this world.

Now, if man had created God, rather than God creating us, we would, I believe, have done just that. At the very least, the "heros" of faith would have been a little more than how scripture describes them. Take King David, a man after God's own heart...he was a murderer and an adulterer, contrary to God's will, but, God showed mercy.

Had I written the story, it would have been a little different. Take Jonah, one who refused to do God's own will. A little embarrasing, some would think. If we had an employee that behaved as he did, I don;t think we would have published the story.

I don't think men would have written anything different then we have in the Bible because they had to account for the real world. It would have been obvious that it was made up if they had made god a superhero answering everyone's problems because we don't see any of these miracles happen in reality. Instead they made up a few supposed miracle stories that can't be verified so we can be told to "shut up and believe."

Same goes for the heroes of the biblical stories; the biblical authors of the Old Testament books were trying to explain history (much of which actually occurred) through the colored lenses of religion. In the David example, an insurrection was led against King David so they had to come up with some "sin" to explain why it happened when "shit happens" would have been a better explanation. This is painfully obvious in 2 Samuel 24 where a plaque killed 70,000 ancient Israelites. The author is obviously grasping for straws to come up with a "sin" as a reason.

ST, try to see it from my perspective. Christianity claims about Jehovah being in charge of the universe, yet I see nothing around me beyond that which can be explained through the natural world. I see statements such as "we (believers) are in this world, we will suffer tribulation" as an excuse used to obscure the obvious (that no one is in charge). No matter how I look at it religion makes no sense.

(30-08-2011 04:44 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Thanks for the opportunity to respond,

S.T.

I enjoy the exchange as well, thanks

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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30-08-2011, 08:53 PM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
Oh, Ranger, same old double-think and double-talk! Mining that silly book for the bits you like and trying to explain away away the bits you don't.

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31-08-2011, 12:47 AM
 
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(23-08-2011 10:43 PM)cufflink Wrote:  As I'm sure you know, the United States Constitution does not once mention the word "God."
I also know that every state constitution does mention "God", being based on His same immutable laws. This was the prevailing belief of those who constructed the U.S. and state constitutions. Rolleyes

"Alabama 1901 Preamble: We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.

Alaska 1956 Preamble: We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879 Preamble: We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.

Colorado 1876 Preamble: We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818 Preamble: The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897 Preamble: Through Divine Goodness all men have, bynature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution....

Georgia 1777 Preamble: We, the people of Georgia , relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959 Preamble: We, the people of Hawaii , Grateful for Divine Guidance . Establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Idaho , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings..

Illinois 1870 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil law, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851 Preamble: We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.

Iowa 1857 Preamble: We, the People of the State of Iowa , grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution . . .

Kansas 1859 Preamble: We, the people of Kansas , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891 Preamble: We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Louisiana , grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820 Preamble: We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776 Preamble: We, the people of the state of Maryland , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780 Preamble: We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe . . . In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction .

Michigan 1908 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota 1857 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

Mississippi 1890 Preamble: We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845 Preamble: We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . . . Establish this Constitution.

Montana 1889 Preamble: We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..

Nebraska 1875 Preamble: We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, Establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864 Preamble: We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V: Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844 Preamble: We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911 Preamble: We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty

New York 1846, Preamble: We, the people of the State of New York , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868 Preamble: We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889 Preamble: We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852 Preamble: We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907 Preamble: Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..

Oregon 1857 Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2: All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences...

Pennsylvania 1776 Preamble: We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842 Preamble: We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina 1778 Preamble: We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889 Preamble: We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties

Tennessee 1796 Art. XI.III: That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845 Preamble: We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896 Preamble: Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777,Preamble: Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man

Virginia 1776 Bill of Rights, XVI: Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other

Washington 1889 Preamble: We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872 Preamble: Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia, reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God

Wisconsin 1848 Preamble: We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890 Preamble: We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties . . . establish this Constitution."

(30-08-2011 03:46 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  So a belief in blind chance is highly rational.
Ah so that would make belief in design highly irrational...

(23-08-2011 10:43 PM)cufflink Wrote:  You know, sometimes I think we would have been better off if the Founding Fathers hadn't been so inspired by "God's immutable laws."
Hey you can always move to Cambodia were you'll work for a bowl of rice a day. Make mine extra sticky.


(24-08-2011 01:13 AM)BGrambo Wrote:  Alot of our countries great men were believers in "a" God, but not in religion.
Me too everyday! Religion blows, that's why I follow after Jesus Christ. Sweet...
Quote:They saw past the curtain that blocked the true view of their belief. I think it's fine for someone to have a god, but not a religion. To be a follower, and a believer are two totally different things in my opinion.
Agreed.
Quote:BTW slavery was the stupidest thing ever invented.
That's why I chose to be a bondservant.
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31-08-2011, 08:06 AM
RE: "You're going to hell!"
(30-08-2011 08:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Oh, Ranger, same old double-think and double-talk! Mining that silly book for the bits you like and trying to explain away away the bits you don't.

Could the "double think and double talk" be pointed out specifically?

Thanks,

S.T.
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