You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
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18-02-2014, 05:46 PM
You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
Has anyone had this problem? Being told you are right but you're not because logic and fact aren't technically real because we are divine beings?


Right so I am friends on Facebook with a religious father and son pair that I use to attend church with. They are anti-homosexual marriage rights, and believe it is a disorder. They believe secularism is going to ruin society. They think feminism is 100% pure man hate. They are New Zealanders but ridiculously pro Russia and Putin. They always post things on how wonderful it is as a nation and what a great job Putin is doing protecting kids from homosexuals, and how Putin being conservative actually moves the country forward lightyears ahead of the rest of the world. They are into nearly every single anti-American government conspiracy (everything is cover up).

So personal opinions aside, they often make sweeping status updates or post articles by some random guy blogging (Vineyard saker) or RT news or other various random sources. Including things like homosexuality being a mental illness.

However I keep asking them for official sources to support their claims on statistics and the studies on homosexuality being mental illness and all sorts of things. They never answer. Anyway - the big cracker came when one day the son posted a thing about not using the bible to oppress people and unbeknown to him the post linked to stuff about not beating up homosexuals etc.

Anyway his dad posted this article on teen suicides and such being cover ups and how homosexuality was like a secular political movement and how it was going to let paedophilia and bestiality be a legal thing, The citations for the article, the author referenced an article had written a few years before, and random crap that had nothing to do with what he was saying. It was written by the president for some association for the truth about homosexuals for america, or some jazz.

I pointed this out as being not a great source, and wanted proof that there had been faked suicides etc. My questions were dismissed, and I was told I was a clueless atheist because I had no moral anchor. I never really voice opinions I always just asked for facts rather than people's opinions on the things they post.

I fought back the related apologetics and also his thing about homosexuality being immoral and against the church - I pointed out all the flaws with the idea that sex should only be for procreation and that marriage should adhere to exactly the same principle.

He proceeded to agree with me and then told be he appreciated my logic but I was missing his point because of my logic. That I was in right but that isn't the point. He tried accusing me of using a strawman... a term I had introduced him in another discussion, and I pointed out that not only did I not make a strawman he had drawn one in a previous post and I had not mentioned it because I didn't feel I needed to go there, but he had tried using a fallacy fallacy (that because I had made an logical error that my entire argument meant nill) .

He proceeded to go on about how my logic is right, but that logic and fact are not the answers, and posted me an article about how being loving creatures makes us spiritual beings. It was talking about how I love therefore I am divine - I was going to say if that included cetaceans because scientists think they might display the same complexity of emotions as we do- but I didn't go there.

He also proceeded to tell me to have a beer - and then I decided to discuss craft brews for several posts thereafter.

This is pretty much a dead end argument and there is no point for me to continue it or engage again - but what are your guys thoughts what would you have said? What are the similar situations you have been in?
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18-02-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
For me, once a person admits that even good reasoning will not change their mind, nor will they use it themselves, the conversation is over. You can no longer have a rational conversation. Kudos to you for putting up with it, and trying to find ways around it, but I think those two are a lost cause.

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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18-02-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
What logic or evidence can you present a person who does not value logic or evidence?

These people are brain dead. They preach spirituality, but actually their "spirituality", which I understand as cognitive capabilities, are dead. It's degading, isn't it? I mean, what sets us humans apart from other animals is our enhanced cognitive capabilties, and they seem to have lost it.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
(18-02-2014 05:46 PM)Wanderingcelt Wrote:  He proceeded to go on about how my logic is right, but that logic and fact are not the answers, and posted me an article about how being loving creatures makes us spiritual beings. It was talking about how I love therefore I am divine - I was going to say if that included cetaceans because scientists think they might display the same complexity of emotions as we do- but I didn't go there.

There are two ways to deal with this:

1) Ignore them because they are admittedly impervious to reason.

2) Make up equally stupid things and claim they can't use logic because they're supposed to use [wargarble] instead, and logic can't transcend the boundaries of observable reality and [wargarble]. You basically say the same things he's saying, but replace Jesus with [wargarble]. Get creative with this. Have fun!
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19-02-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
(18-02-2014 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  For me, once a person admits that even good reasoning will not change their mind, nor will they use it themselves, the conversation is over. You can no longer have a rational conversation. Kudos to you for putting up with it, and trying to find ways around it, but I think those two are a lost cause.

I agree, and wouldn't get too concerned with trying to change their minds, BUT I would continue to point out the inconsistencies and errors. And here's why: you said these conversations are taking place on Facebook, right? Others can read it, and will make up their own minds. Those are the people you are talking to. The lurkers. Many may not be in a position or feel comfortable coming to 'your side', but trust me, lurkers watch, they take in the conversation, etc.

So I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on these two to come around, but all the other people lurking are who you need to keep in mind that your points are directed at. Many of the deconversion stories here are people who heard an opposing viewpoint, was pointed in the direction of a source for info, told what to google to research, and then their eyes were opened. Many religious people keep themselves surrounded with others that share the same view--you have found a way to them.

Don't let these two know that you are really directing your posts to the others on their list, they will shut you off.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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25-02-2014, 12:01 AM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2014 12:04 AM by f stop.)
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
(18-02-2014 05:46 PM)Wanderingcelt Wrote:  Has anyone had this problem? Being told you are right but you're not because logic and fact aren't technically real because we are divine beings?
At this point the guy is denying reality. Exit, stage left.

Just admit it. Logic is your religion. Logic is your god. You have faith in Logic.

Humans arrived on Earth on 22 October 4004 B.C. A few of us are still trying to repair the ship.
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25-02-2014, 03:27 AM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
You can try to demonstrate that they use logic in their every day lives (e.g. which insurance policy should they take out) and then ask why logic should not be used for spiritual matters.

They would probably argue that they cannot use logic because they cannot know everything about God. You will never get them to question whether God exists or not. So the next best thing is to try and point out to them how someone who has never been exposed to any religion can successfully live their lives using logic, how then are they supposed to know to stop using logic? Use that to explain why atheists exist and that might be the first crack in their wall.
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25-02-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
(18-02-2014 09:33 PM)Youkay Wrote:  What logic or evidence can you present a person who does not value logic or evidence?

These people are brain dead. They preach spirituality, but actually their "spirituality", which I understand as cognitive capabilities, are dead. It's degading, isn't it? I mean, what sets us humans apart from other animals is our enhanced cognitive capabilties, and they seem to have lost it.

I think I know where you stole it Wink
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25-02-2014, 07:03 AM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
Doesn't matter - if there are other religious types reading this, the conversation may plant seeds of doubt - most do not dismiss logic and will find it to be a bad thing....

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-02-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: You're not getting my point because you're using logic.
Where in NZ are they? I can go an punch him in the face for you if you want.
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