You should apologize
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05-07-2017, 09:18 AM
You should apologize
I am posting this under politics because I think it's the most fitting place.

I could have titled this thread several different things; "How to have an effective conversation" "Learning to communicate" "Talking past each other" and many other things. Given how this post is going to end however I thought the title I gave it was the best choice.

Too often when people think they are talking to each other what they are really doing is talking at each other. Communication happens in three phases. There is what one means. There is what one says. Then there is what the listener hears. Too often we are focused on making our point or being right to stop and ask ourselves if what we heard the other person say is actually what they meant. How many conversation breakdowns could be avoided if we paused for a moment and rephrased what we think the person said back to them? This one simple action can so easily either clear up a misunderstanding, or demonstrate the absurdity of a persons argument. If we understand their position but we think they might be confused or misunderstand ours we could solve this miscommunication by asking them to repeat our position back to them using our own words.

For example:
Christian:You don't believe in god?
Me: No I don't think there is enough evidence for a god.
Christian: Then where did everything come from?
Me:...
Me:...
Me: So you think the universe was created? (Mirror their position back to them)
Christian: Yes of course.
Me: Why?
Christian:...
Christian: What do you mean why? How can there not be a creator, just look around you.
Me: I didn't say I don't believe in a creator.
Christian: But you said your an atheist.
Me: What do you think atheist means? (ask them to rephrase your position)
Christian: It means you don't believe in god.
Me: No. It means I don't know if there is a god, and that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me. (clarify)
Christain: If there is no god then who created everything then huh?
Me: Who created god? I don't know how the universe got here and I am okay saying I don't know.

This may be frustrating sometimes because often times the person is running into a truly foreign concept. Even if they have run into a hundred atheists before it doesn't mean someone has actually taken the time to show them that there is a difference between "There is no god" and "I don't know and I am not going to claim I do.".

It will also take time to learn to tell the difference between those who are confused by a foreign concept, and those who are willfully ignorant. There are those who it will take time for them to learn to mirror your position back to you. Then there are those who no matter how hard to try to get them to mirror your position they will refuse. This is because doing so will reveal to them the flaws in their own position. When I catch myself avoiding trying to mirror someones position back to them I stop myself from avoiding it. Avoiding mirroring means that there is probably a flaw in my own position somewhere and that it's about to be revealed. Even if it turns out the other person's position was not right either there are times when I have found my own position changing because they revealed a flaw in my logic.

This works for more than just god.


This is why one of my favorite quotes and something I will challenge you to restate is "Alway apologize for being right.". I curious if as many people as I think will get the meaning wrong.
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05-07-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: You should apologize
[Image: image_zps1gfzfr9b.png]

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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05-07-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: You should apologize
I do apologise. To myself. For wasting even a minute of my time on your mental ejaculates.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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05-07-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: You should apologize
It's a shame you didn't start your life at TTA with this. It's quite a good point.

(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  ...
Communication happens in three phases. There is what one means. There is what one says. Then there is what the listener hears.
...

I'd say there are four in the encode/decode process.

More, if you include the 'modem' like stuff about converting between analogue and digital.

1. What one intends / means
2. What one says
3. What the listener hears
4. What the listener interprets.

Of course, data integrity can go all skewey at a number of levels:

I think you might be referring to Novelty, Contingency and/or Context.

[Image: CF-18-April-2016-3.jpg]

(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  ...
When I catch myself avoiding trying to mirror someones position back to them I stop myself from avoiding it. Avoiding mirroring means that there is probably a flaw in my own position somewhere and that it's about to be revealed.
...

This is sound advice... a useful validity check.

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05-07-2017, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 11:48 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 11:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Of course, data integrity can go all skewey at a number of levels

When my mother-in-law was in decline, it was nearly impossible to get her to understand anything we said to her. First of all, she was going deaf and wouldn't get a hearing aid. Then if we said something loud enough for her to hear, she thought we were yelling at her. Then when we were more careful with our tone of voice, she thought we were repeating ourselves unnecessarily. Then she almost always misconstrued our intended meanings with some emotionally laden interpretations. Then she would forget we even told her anything because of her memory problems. Then she would blame us for not telling her things.

Finally, when her dementia progressed far enough, we stopped trying altogether.
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05-07-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: You should apologize
Thanks DLJ.

It probably wouldn't matter if i would have started with this. It's very difficult for people to actually tell what i think or believe about something. Depending on the setting i will argue a position i 99% do not believe. I do this not simply to challenge others but to challenge myself. I use it as a check against my own position to make sure i know the other side of an argument as well as someone who holds an opposing view. In high school i once took over a debate for a Christian who was making a very poor showing. At the end of the debate (which i won) the Christian turned to me and said "but your an atheist.", to which i responded "and if i can argue your side so well what do i know that you don't that would make me an atheist?". Happy to say he deconverted a few months later.

Back to things would be different. I also think it's important for communities like this to not just sit around clapping each other on the back having a circle jerk all the time. Most people think of the world as a dichotomy between two sides. I tend to think there are a lot more than two sides to any given topic.
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05-07-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 11:48 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Depending on the setting i will argue a position i 99% do not believe.

I find contrarians to be dishonest.
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05-07-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 11:48 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  It's very difficult for people to actually tell what i think or believe about something.

You don't say! And thanks dog!

Quote:I also think it's important for communities like this to not just sit around clapping each other on the back having a circle jerk all the time.

Well, we can't all be as good at self-jerking as you appear to be.

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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05-07-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 11:48 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Depending on the setting i will argue a position i 99% do not believe.

I find contrarians to be dishonest.

I disagree.

Angel

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05-07-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Me: I didn't say I don't believe in a creator.
Christian: But you said your an atheist.
Me: What do you think atheist means? (ask them to rephrase your position)
Christian: It means you don't believe in god.
Me: No. It means I don't know if there is a god, and that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me. (clarify)

Wrong. That's the definition of an agnostic, not an atheist.
Better luck next time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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