You should apologize
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05-07-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: You should apologize
There is nothing novel or profound about the technique of active listening. Although it is a useful tool, it's less so when being used in the condescending manner that you describe.
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05-07-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 11:48 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Depending on the setting i will argue a position i 99% do not believe.

I find contrarians to be dishonest.
It depends on the reason one is a contrarian. If one is contradictory simply to be contradictory I would agree with you. If one is contradictory for the purpose of either checking one's own position for soundness, or to prevent a group from becoming too ideologically inbred then i disagree. I have often times argued a position contrary to my own only to realize that both the positions pro and con as framed were wrong.
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05-07-2017, 12:22 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 12:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Me: I didn't say I don't believe in a creator.
Christian: But you said your an atheist.
Me: What do you think atheist means? (ask them to rephrase your position)
Christian: It means you don't believe in god.
Me: No. It means I don't know if there is a god, and that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me. (clarify)

Wrong. That's the definition of an agnostic, not an atheist.
Better luck next time.

That is a discussion for a thread on positive vs negative agnosticism. For all I know there could be a creator. Perhaps we are a science experiment, a simulation run on a computer for some scientist to learn more about the way their universe works. I don't actually believe (I'd say I'm about a 2 on the Dawkins scale when it comes to this idea) that but it's fun to think about. Deist are positive agnostic, they do not know so they assume yes. Skeptical Atheists are negative agnostics, they do not know so they say no. One should be skeptical even of ones own beliefs.
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05-07-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 12:22 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 12:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. That's the definition of an agnostic, not an atheist.
Better luck next time.

That is a discussion for a thread on positive vs negative agnosticism. For all I know there could be a creator. Perhaps we are a science experiment, a simulation run on a computer for some scientist to learn more about the way their universe works. I don't actually believe (I'd say I'm about a 2 on the Dawkins scale when it comes to this idea) that but it's fun to think about. Deist are positive agnostic, they do not know so they assume yes. Skeptical Atheists are negative agnostics, they do not know so they say no. One should be skeptical even of ones own beliefs.

Thank you, your holiness.
Lovely, but you don't get to redefine words for your own purpose, and still expect to communicate. Atheism is NOTHING but the absence of belief in a god(s). Look up agnosticism in the dictionary. Classical Agnosticism meant "we are unable to know if there is a god". Modern Agnosticism means "I don't know if there is a god". You will find no sub-meanings of "positive" or "negative" agnosticism. What *would* we do without our daily sermon from the nut-of-the-week ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-07-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 12:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I find contrarians to be dishonest.
It depends on the reason one is a contrarian. If one is contradictory simply to be contradictory I would agree with you. If one is contradictory for the purpose of either checking one's own position for soundness, or to prevent a group from becoming too ideologically inbred then i disagree. I have often times argued a position contrary to my own only to realize that both the positions pro and con as framed were wrong.

If you argue a contrary opinion without letting people know it's a rhetorical exercise, you're misleading them. If you start with the assumption that they likely can't defend their positions, you're playing some weird game with them.

In other words, if you don't know why people think what they do, you could always just ask for their reasons instead of pushing them into a defensive position. It's like you think a fire can only be started by rubbing two sticks together.
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05-07-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 01:04 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 12:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  It depends on the reason one is a contrarian. If one is contradictory simply to be contradictory I would agree with you. If one is contradictory for the purpose of either checking one's own position for soundness, or to prevent a group from becoming too ideologically inbred then i disagree. I have often times argued a position contrary to my own only to realize that both the positions pro and con as framed were wrong.

If you argue a contrary opinion without letting people know it's a rhetorical exercise, you're misleading them. If you start with the assumption that they likely can't defend their positions, you're playing some weird game with them.

In other words, if you don't know why people think what they do, you could always just ask for their reasons instead of pushing them into a defensive position. It's like you think a fire can only be started by rubbing two sticks together.

If someone cannot defend their position they have no business holding a position. I am of the belief the only way of learning is doing. Most people have no idea why they believe what they believe. I've been listening a lot to dogma debate and it's been quite painful. However I laud his approach. When you start pushing people to nail down a belief they hold be it religious or otherwise you quickly learn there is only mush underneath.
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05-07-2017, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 01:29 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 01:16 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  If someone cannot defend their position they have no business holding a position. I am of the belief the only way of learning is doing. Most people have no idea why they believe what they believe. I've been listening a lot to dogma debate and it's been quite painful. However I laud his approach. When you start pushing people to nail down a belief they hold be it religious or otherwise you quickly learn there is only mush underneath.

But you cannot defend your positions because you don't really believe them. That's why you are playing Humpty Dumpty games with us instead. You can't live up to your own harsh and impossible standards.

Relax, give it a break, and actually talk with people instead.

Edit: You also assume that if people don't tell you their reasons, they must have none. But of course they may not find you worth their time.
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05-07-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: You should apologize
Meh. I never go looking for theist shitheads. But when they wander into my cross hairs and start trying to convince me of whichever deity they believe then all bets are off.

At some point I will use Douglas Adams' Puddle Analogy.

Quote:“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!”

You'd be amazed how many of them cannot see themselves because, you know, their "fucking god" says so.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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05-07-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 10:47 AM)Vera Wrote:  I do apologise. To myself. For wasting even a minute of my time on your mental ejaculates.

Yes, low-quality ejaculate is the unfortunate byproduct of self-education.
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05-07-2017, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 01:54 PM by outtathereligioncloset.)
RE: You should apologize
Not sure this belongs here but what better place to put it?

Somehow when I clicked on this I was expecting something more along these lines:

Learning to apologize:

There are five parts to a genuine apology.

I'm sorry.
I was wrong.
I won't do it again.
Is there anything I can do to try to make it better?
Will you please forgive me?

Order of the 5 is not important. But having all five parts and meaning it is.

Last week I walked into a hair salon at the end of a young man's haircut. He was in tears. The stylist (well-known for this, which is why I won't let her touch me with the proverbial ten-foot pole) had given him the cut she felt he needed, not the cut he had described in detail. And apparently she cut a LOT more than he had asked for. And before you ask, NO his mother had NOT told her to cut more. His mother wanted him to get the haircut he wanted. She wanted all four of her kids to get the various cuts they wanted from the various stylists there. Three of them did, including one young man with his hair partially bright blue. This other son didn't get what he asked for. Not even close. The stylist's "apology"? "I'm sorry you're crying." I didn't know these people. But I'm still disgusted with myself for not having given her an unasked for education in the *parts of a genuine apology.*

[Image: sad-puppy-smiley-emoticon.gif]

Even a dog is better at apologizing than that stylist was.

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
"Life is not all lovely thorns and singing vultures, you know." ~ Morticia Addams
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