You should apologize
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06-07-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: You should apologize
(06-07-2017 05:19 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  I can defend any position because i always assume the opposition may be right. I don't care about BEING right, only if the position i hold is right.

So then ... can you give us an example where you ARE wrong but the position you hold is right ?

Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-07-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  I am posting this under politics because I think it's the most fitting place.

I could have titled this thread several different things; "How to have an effective conversation" "Learning to communicate" "Talking past each other" and many other things. Given how this post is going to end however I thought the title I gave it was the best choice.

Too often when people think they are talking to each other what they are really doing is talking at each other. Communication happens in three phases. There is what one means. There is what one says. Then there is what the listener hears. Too often we are focused on making our point or being right to stop and ask ourselves if what we heard the other person say is actually what they meant. How many conversation breakdowns could be avoided if we paused for a moment and rephrased what we think the person said back to them? This one simple action can so easily either clear up a misunderstanding, or demonstrate the absurdity of a persons argument. If we understand their position but we think they might be confused or misunderstand ours we could solve this miscommunication by asking them to repeat our position back to them using our own words.

For example:
Christian:You don't believe in god?
Me: No I don't think there is enough evidence for a god.
Christian: Then where did everything come from?
Me:...
Me:...
Me: So you think the universe was created? (Mirror their position back to them)
Christian: Yes of course.
Me: Why?
Christian:...
Christian: What do you mean why? How can there not be a creator, just look around you.
Me: I didn't say I don't believe in a creator.
Christian: But you said your an atheist.
Me: What do you think atheist means? (ask them to rephrase your position)
Christian: It means you don't believe in god.
Me: No. It means I don't know if there is a god, and that I have not seen enough evidence to convince me. (clarify)
Christain: If there is no god then who created everything then huh?
Me: Who created god? I don't know how the universe got here and I am okay saying I don't know.

This may be frustrating sometimes because often times the person is running into a truly foreign concept. Even if they have run into a hundred atheists before it doesn't mean someone has actually taken the time to show them that there is a difference between "There is no god" and "I don't know and I am not going to claim I do.".

It will also take time to learn to tell the difference between those who are confused by a foreign concept, and those who are willfully ignorant. There are those who it will take time for them to learn to mirror your position back to you. Then there are those who no matter how hard to try to get them to mirror your position they will refuse. This is because doing so will reveal to them the flaws in their own position. When I catch myself avoiding trying to mirror someones position back to them I stop myself from avoiding it. Avoiding mirroring means that there is probably a flaw in my own position somewhere and that it's about to be revealed. Even if it turns out the other person's position was not right either there are times when I have found my own position changing because they revealed a flaw in my logic.

This works for more than just god.


This is why one of my favorite quotes and something I will challenge you to restate is "Alway apologize for being right.". I curious if as many people as I think will get the meaning wrong.

I've never heard this quote, but... I was kinda raised to preface statements with "I'm sorry but" whenever I'm right and it contradicts what they are saying. which drives people nuts. It's a habit I've worked hard to break as it seems to be counterproductive.

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06-07-2017, 03:05 PM
RE: You should apologize
(06-07-2017 02:11 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I've never heard this quote, but... I was kinda raised to preface statements with "I'm sorry but" whenever I'm right and it contradicts what they are saying. which drives people nuts. It's a habit I've worked hard to break as it seems to be counterproductive.

I do that too; I guess it is meant to "soften" the contradiction as "Sorry, but I think that's not quite right" is a tad less confrontational than "Wrong again, asshole". I probably need to find something in the middle there....

I'm still trying to figure out what the body of the OP had to do with apologizing at all. The concept of repeating your interlocutor's point back in your own words to verify that you understand each other is a useful tool. I don't see how an apology relates to that.

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06-07-2017, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2017 03:31 PM by whateverist.)
RE: You should apologize
Just wrote you a caustic, sarcastic reply for what I thought was a condescending first post, which I just deleted. Upon a closer reading I find there is some things there I agree with. Think I have to give it a closer reading now.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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07-07-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: You should apologize
(06-07-2017 02:11 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I've never heard this quote, but... I was kinda raised to preface statements with "I'm sorry but" whenever I'm right and it contradicts what they are saying. which drives people nuts. It's a habit I've worked hard to break as it seems to be counterproductive.
(06-07-2017 03:25 PM)whateverist Wrote:  Just wrote you a caustic, sarcastic reply for what I thought was a condescending first post, which I just deleted. Upon a closer reading I find there is some things there I agree with. Think I have to give it a closer reading now.

(06-07-2017 09:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So then ... can you give us an example where you ARE wrong but the position you hold is right ?

Facepalm


As far as I can tell the quote is original to David Gerrold and appears in his juvenile fiction novel Jumping off Planet which is part of his three part Starstriders series. The statement "I am sorry but..." is in direct contradiction to "One should always apologize for being right.". But can be a nullifier or it can be an objection. "But what about" vs "I'm sorry but".

"One should apologize for right." is a radically different statement than "One should apologize for being right.". Being right refers to the position "I am right and you are wrong.".

To answer Buckey Ball my second post under the altruism thread in response to Vera is an example in which I am wrong and my position is right.
BlkFnx Wrote:]Citation needed? I am going to assume good faith. We are adults and the Internet can answer any question almost instantly.
The above turns the post into a defense of myself and my own position instead of a defense of the position. For that I do apologize to Vera, and I thank Buckey to for the challenge (I am sure that I could find other examples).

Being right assumes that because the other person is wrong one is in the right. This is a false assumption because, just because one is less wrong does not make one right. Being correct is personal, where as correct is objective.
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07-07-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 10:22 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  As far as I can tell the quote is original to David Gerrold and appears in his juvenile fiction novel Jumping off Planet which is part of his three part Starstriders series. The statement "I am sorry but..." is in direct contradiction to "One should always apologize for being right.". But can be a nullifier or it can be an objection. "But what about" vs "I'm sorry but".

"One should apologize for right." is a radically different statement than "One should apologize for being right.". Being right refers to the position "I am right and you are wrong.".

To answer Buckey Ball my second post under the altruism thread in response to Vera is an example in which I am wrong and my position is right.
BlkFnx Wrote:]Citation needed? I am going to assume good faith. We are adults and the Internet can answer any question almost instantly.
The above turns the post into a defense of myself and my own position instead of a defense of the position. For that I do apologize to Vera, and I thank Buckey to for the challenge (I am sure that I could find other examples).

Being right assumes that because the other person is wrong one is in the right. This is a false assumption because, just because one is less wrong does not make one right. Being correct is personal, where as correct is objective.

Having read that several times, all I can say is that you English uniquely.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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07-07-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 11:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 10:22 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  As far as I can tell the quote is original to David Gerrold and appears in his juvenile fiction novel Jumping off Planet which is part of his three part Starstriders series. The statement "I am sorry but..." is in direct contradiction to "One should always apologize for being right.". But can be a nullifier or it can be an objection. "But what about" vs "I'm sorry but".

"One should apologize for right." is a radically different statement than "One should apologize for being right.". Being right refers to the position "I am right and you are wrong.".

To answer Buckey Ball my second post under the altruism thread in response to Vera is an example in which I am wrong and my position is right.
The above turns the post into a defense of myself and my own position instead of a defense of the position. For that I do apologize to Vera, and I thank Buckey to for the challenge (I am sure that I could find other examples).

Being right assumes that because the other person is wrong one is in the right. This is a false assumption because, just because one is less wrong does not make one right. Being correct is personal, where as correct is objective.

Having read that several times, all I can say is that you English uniquely.
Serious question.

Is there a better way to convey the idea? If so i really want to know how to communicate it better.
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07-07-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 11:47 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 11:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Having read that several times, all I can say is that you English uniquely.
Serious question.

Is there a better way to convey the idea? If so i really want to know how to communicate it better.

I would like to help but I honestly do not know what idea you are trying to convey. Maybe if I itemize the confusion...

Quote:The statement "I am sorry but..." is in direct contradiction to "One should always apologize for being right.".

I do not see the contradiction unless you mean that the "sorry, but" intro usually doesn't mean that the person is actually sorry, just that they are trying to be somewhat nice. I still have no idea what you mean by apologizing for being right.

Quote:But can be a nullifier or it can be an objection. "But what about" vs "I'm sorry but".

Not sure what you mean by nullifier in contrast to an objection. "But what about" is, to me, just a better way of introducing an objection than "I'm sorry but" because the latter implies that you know you are right while the former leaves the door open for questioning both sides.

Quote:"One should apologize for right." is a radically different statement than "One should apologize for being right.".

"One should apologize for right" doesn't mean anything at all to me. "One should apologize for being right" makes sense as a sentence but I don't have any idea why anybody would believe that.

Quote:Being right refers to the position "I am right and you are wrong.".

"Being right" refers to being correct which pretty much implies that the other person is incorrect.

Quote:To answer Buckey Ball my second post under the altruism thread in response to Vera is an example in which I am wrong and my position is right.

BlkFnx Wrote:
Citation needed? I am going to assume good faith. We are adults and the Internet can answer any question almost instantly.

The above turns the post into a defense of myself and my own position instead of a defense of the position. For that I do apologize to Vera, and I thank Buckey to for the challenge (I am sure that I could find other examples).

I can understand a case where somebody is wrong but their position is right when they just have a bad argument. You can have a true conclusion despite bad premises... you just can't demonstrate that the conclusion is true using them.

I don't understand at all how what you quoted relates to that so I'm assuming you are talking about something else.

Quote:Being right assumes that because the other person is wrong one is in the right.

No, being right is being able to demonstrate that your position is correct. Assuming you are correct because the other person's argument is wrong is fallacious reasoning. You may think you are right but that isn't the same thing as being right.

Quote:This is a false assumption because, just because one is less wrong does not make one right. Being correct is personal, where as correct is objective.

You seem to be using "being right" to mean "thinking you are right". If so, that's a very confusing use of the phrase. I'm guessing you may be skirting the idea of closure where people accept an answer just to not have to admit that they do not know but am really not sure.

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07-07-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: You should apologize
Thank's for the feedback unfogged.

There are two ways in which being right can be understood. There is being right, and being right. It's not so much about premise, conclusion, or even a good or bad argument.
"One should apologize for right."
"One should apologize for holding the correct conclusion."
Vs
"One should apologize for being right."
"I am right you are wrong".

To apologize for the facts or holding a correct conclusion of the facts is absurd, and not what the statement about being right is meant to convey.
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07-07-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: You should apologize
Have some delicious word salad! It's good for you. Thumbsup

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