You should apologize
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07-07-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: You should apologize
"That may be your opinion, but everyone else knows better." Is what my ex always said!
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07-07-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Have some delicious word salad! It's good for you. Thumbsup

Let me try it this way then.
There is a difference in approach between "This position is right" and "I am right.".
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07-07-2017, 02:49 PM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 02:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Have some delicious word salad! It's good for you. Thumbsup

Let me try it this way then.
There is a difference in approach between "This position is right" and "I am right.".

Right, true, or correct?

Approach, or implication, or signal as received?

My best guess at your meaning is that if a person injects the "I" there is an implied superiority (moral or intellectual superiority is not clear) to the person who holds a contrary position. Also some awareness that this assumed superiority can offend the opponent and therefore is best accompanied for an apology (for the tone?).

Do you mean that "you are wrong" is perceived by the hearer as a value judgment/moral indictment? That's true, but only some of the time. (and "that position is wrong" can also be perceived that way) To change someone's position in such a case you have to understand why and how they're attached to it. Restating content isn't going to help much, if any; maybe that's why your real-life debates are going awry.
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07-07-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: You should apologize
(07-07-2017 01:58 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Thank's for the feedback unfogged.

There are two ways in which being right can be understood. There is being right, and being right.

That doesn't help explain what you mean.

Quote:It's not so much about premise, conclusion, or even a good or bad argument.
"One should apologize for right."
"One should apologize for holding the correct conclusion."
Vs
"One should apologize for being right."
"I am right you are wrong".

The whole bit about apologizing is simply not conveying any meaning. I have no idea what you are trying to say there. From what I've seen of your other interactions around the forum that seems to be par for the course. You may think you are making subtle points but it just comes across garbled because you are not at all clear.

Quote:To apologize for the facts or holding a correct conclusion of the facts is absurd, and not what the statement about being right is meant to convey.

Then what IS it supposed to convey? You keep saying people should apologize for being right but that it's absurd to apologize for being right... at least that's all I'm hearing.

(07-07-2017 02:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Have some delicious word salad! It's good for you. Thumbsup

Let me try it this way then.
There is a difference in approach between "This position is right" and "I am right.".

No, there really isn't. At least not in any meaningful way I can see (assuming you hold that position).

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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08-07-2017, 05:29 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 05:40 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  This is why one of my favorite quotes and something I will challenge you to restate is "Alway apologize for being right.". I curious if as many people as I think will get the meaning wrong.
...
As far as I can tell the quote is original to David Gerrold and appears in his juvenile fiction novel Jumping off Planet which is part of his three part Starstriders series.

As far as google can tell that quote doesn't appear anywhere except TTA. The closest thing I found from Gerrold occurs in "Leaping To The Stars: Book Three in the Starsiders Trilogy" :

" 'Well, let me put it this way. If you win an argument, what's the first thing you should do?'
I shrugged. 'I dunno.'
'Apologize.' "

and it's in the context of an extremely juvenile argument that you should apologize for winning an argument because that means the other person is wrong and that makes them feel bad because everybody feels bad when someone knows more than they do. That's the meaning of the paraphrased idea in its infantile context.

If someone apologized to me after winning an argument I'd feel obliged to kick the living shit out of their condescending ass.

#sigh
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08-07-2017, 05:40 AM
RE: You should apologize
(08-07-2017 05:29 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 09:18 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  This is why one of my favorite quotes and something I will challenge you to restate is "Alway apologize for being right.". I curious if as many people as I think will get the meaning wrong.
...
As far as I can tell the quote is original to David Gerrold and appears in his juvenile fiction novel Jumping off Planet which is part of his three part Starstriders series.

As far as google can tell that quote doesn't appear anywhere except TTA. The closest thing I found from Gerrold occurs in "Leaping To The Stars: Book Three in the Starsiders Trilogy" :

" 'Well, let me put it this way. If you win an argument, what's the first thing you should do?'
I shrugged. 'I dunno.'
'Apologize.' "

and it's in the context of an extremely juvenile argument that you should apologize for winning an argument because that means the other person is wrong and that makes them feel bad because everybody feels bad when someone knows more than they do. That's the meaning of the paraphrased idea in its infantile context.

Will look back through the series to see if I can't find when it first appears.

(07-07-2017 03:27 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 01:58 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Thank's for the feedback unfogged.

There are two ways in which being right can be understood. There is being right, and being right.

That doesn't help explain what you mean.

Quote:It's not so much about premise, conclusion, or even a good or bad argument.
"One should apologize for right."
"One should apologize for holding the correct conclusion."
Vs
"One should apologize for being right."
"I am right you are wrong".

The whole bit about apologizing is simply not conveying any meaning. I have no idea what you are trying to say there. From what I've seen of your other interactions around the forum that seems to be par for the course. You may think you are making subtle points but it just comes across garbled because you are not at all clear.

Quote:To apologize for the facts or holding a correct conclusion of the facts is absurd, and not what the statement about being right is meant to convey.

Then what IS it supposed to convey? You keep saying people should apologize for being right but that it's absurd to apologize for being right... at least that's all I'm hearing.

(07-07-2017 02:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Let me try it this way then.
There is a difference in approach between "This position is right" and "I am right.".

No, there really isn't. At least not in any meaningful way I can see (assuming you hold that position).

"This position is right" is impersonal, "I am right" is personal.
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08-07-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: You should apologize
(08-07-2017 05:40 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  "This position is right" is impersonal, "I am right" is personal.

So your argument is basically just tone trolling? I agree that some styles are generally more productive than others but it varies with the individuals involved. I'm usually more concerned with the substance of an argument and less with the tone; YMMV.

When you say people should apologize for being right are you just saying that people should always try to soft-peddle their argument? That still wouldn't explain how mirroring people's position back to them applies.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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08-07-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: You should apologize
(05-07-2017 12:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I find contrarians to be dishonest.
It depends on the reason one is a contrarian. If one is contradictory simply to be contradictory I would agree with you. If one is contradictory for the purpose of either checking one's own position for soundness, or to prevent a group from becoming too ideologically inbred then i disagree. I have often times argued a position contrary to my own only to realize that both the positions pro and con as framed were wrong.

Dude seriously you're starting to sound like you're on a mission to save us all Tongue Laugh out load
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09-07-2017, 12:48 AM
RE: You should apologize
(08-07-2017 05:56 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 05:40 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  "This position is right" is impersonal, "I am right" is personal.

So your argument is basically just tone trolling? I agree that some styles are generally more productive than others but it varies with the individuals involved. I'm usually more concerned with the substance of an argument and less with the tone; YMMV.

When you say people should apologize for being right are you just saying that people should always try to soft-peddle their argument? That still wouldn't explain how mirroring people's position back to them applies.
Not just tone, or soft peddling one's arguments, although that can be a useful tool for communication. It's also not about not hurting someone else feelings. At its root it's about what is someone trying to get out of the interaction. Being right is about scoring points. There are times when scoring points may have value. Having a public debate with someone in front of an audience which may be receptive for example. When it comes to interpersonal relationships however outscoring the other person never has any value.
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09-07-2017, 12:50 AM
RE: You should apologize
(08-07-2017 06:39 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 12:12 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  It depends on the reason one is a contrarian. If one is contradictory simply to be contradictory I would agree with you. If one is contradictory for the purpose of either checking one's own position for soundness, or to prevent a group from becoming too ideologically inbred then i disagree. I have often times argued a position contrary to my own only to realize that both the positions pro and con as framed were wrong.

Dude seriously you're starting to sound like you're on a mission to save us all Tongue Laugh out load

People can only save themselves.
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