Your Favorite God Argument
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30-03-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
"Morality is subjective it depends mostly on culture and circumstance. Non-subjective morality is a scary prospect. "

Culture and circumstance? That's a biblical argument.... To wit:

Well, owning slaves was different then.

Well, things were different then and the rapist had to marry his victim because if he didn't she wouldn't be safe around other men any more.

Uh.. No, they weren't different. For a moral rule to be valid, it must be universally applicable to all people, at all times and in all places. If not, it isn't a moral rule, it is an opinion.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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30-03-2013, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2013 03:30 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
(30-03-2013 02:15 PM)Techgorilla Wrote:  In all honesty i don't know if there is one. But the arguments about morality are the hardest to refute for me. It usually means a bunch of guilt trips about how i can't say hitler was wrong and how subjective morality means everyone is right. Is truly frustrating.

Just because morality doesn't come from a deity, doesn't mean it is subjective.

As thinking, empathetic beings, we are able to determine, by what are the best consequences, what are the best actions.

Not to mention, the existence of a god does not mean that morality is objective. If the belief is that only a god can dictate what is moral, then morality is at the whim of a dictator, and therefore, not objective.

Did 'Yahweh' ever edit his texts to tell us that owning other humans as property is immoral? We kind of figured that one out on our own. We'll have no problems figuring out other moral dilemmas ourselves either. No deity required.

EDIT: Google "the superiority of secular morality" and watch Matt Dilahunty's talks on the subject.
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30-03-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
In my mind, the strongest argument for the existence of a god is a lack of coherent definition for the notion of a god. There's some thematic elements that most notions of god seem to have most of the time, but every time people get into specifics someone moves this or that goalpost. The logical extension of this process is that tuna can count as gods, and since tuna exist...

... not that this is a particularly strong argument for the existence of gods, just that it's the strongest one I've encountered. Personally, I think it's a bit fishy.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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30-03-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
(30-03-2013 02:55 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 12:15 PM)Vera Wrote:  In all honesty i don't know if there is one. But the arguments about morality are the hardest to refute for me. It usually means a bunch of guilt trips about how i can't say hitler was wrong and how subjective morality means everyone is right. Is truly frustrating.

Just because morality doesn't come from a deity, doesn't mean it is subjective.

As thinking, empathetic beings, we are able to determine, by what are the best consequences, what are the best actions.

Not to mention, the existence of a god does not mean that morality is objective. If the belief is that only a god can dictate what is moral, then morality is at the whim of a dictator, and therefore, not objective.

Did 'Yahweh' ever edit his texts to tell us that owning other humans as property is immoral? We kind of figured that one out on our own. We'll have no problems figuring out other moral dilemmas ourselves either. No deity required.

EDIT: Google "the superiority of secular morality" and watch Matt Dilahunty's talks on the subject.
[Image: 34543173.jpg]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I never said that quoted bit. Someone's been putting words in my mouth Dodgy

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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30-03-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
"As thinking, empathetic beings, we are able to determine, by what are the best consequences, what are the best actions."

Arguments from effect are highly subjective.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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30-03-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
(30-03-2013 02:44 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "Morality is subjective it depends mostly on culture and circumstance. Non-subjective morality is a scary prospect. "

Culture and circumstance? That's a biblical argument.... To wit:

Well, owning slaves was different then.

Well, things were different then and the rapist had to marry his victim because if he didn't she wouldn't be safe around other men any more.

Uh.. No, they weren't different. For a moral rule to be valid, it must be universally applicable to all people, at all times and in all places. If not, it isn't a moral rule, it is an opinion.

If you are in a foxhole durring a hot encounter and see a large shape running towards you from the enemy position is it alright to shoot to kill? Also your opening line kind of proves what I was saying to their culture a slave owner could be a moral person in his culture it doesn't change the fact that slavery is a violation of the golden rule. If you base your morality off of empathy rather than a deity you can have some definate rules however for most of recorded history that has not been the case.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-03-2013, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 10:45 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
********

Those who administer and moderate in order to exercise personal agenda merely feed into the negative stereotype of Atheism
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30-03-2013, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2013 03:39 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
(30-03-2013 03:05 PM)Vera Wrote:  Whoa, whoa, whoa! I never said that quoted bit. Someone's been putting words in my mouth Dodgy


oops!

My apologies. Not putting words in your mouth, just messed up with quoting,

Fixed my post.

By the way, I like your signature. Great song.

Have you ever heard Marillion's version? Look for it on Youtube. It is quite good.
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30-03-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
(30-03-2013 03:28 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 03:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If you are in a foxhole durring a hot encounter and see a large shape running towards you from the enemy position is it alright to shoot to kill?

The girl I am having the hot encounter with?

No, I think that would be terribly rude.








What?

--J.D.

I should have reworded that, touche.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-03-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: Your Favorite God Argument
I unserstand that under christianity, morality is not objective since it is determined by god. But they just have to claim God is the absolute moral authority and he never lies so what he says is moral must then be moral. And once i'm there i prefer to just leave that alone, i get angry fast once people start claiming that all the atrocities that God commanded are moraly correct because God said so.

As far as secular morality being objective i don't think that is the case. We are talking about a human created concept here so i don't think objective even applies.
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