Your judgement day defense strageity?
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03-02-2014, 03:51 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  Simple premise. If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong, and you die only to wake up standing before the God of the bible, what will you say?

You gave me no proof.

You should have done miricals in my time..

Will you try and turn things on God and put Him on the defensive?

Why do kids get cancer
Why do babies in Africa get aids or starve to death etc..

Or will you say you were a good and moral man?

Or will you be judged and go with what Christ decides?

Or do you have something better?

But what would you do? If all that Christianity thing is wrong and you find yourself in front of any of the thousands of gods people believe in?

Are you going to say that it was only reasonable for you to be a Christian because you were born in a Christian family?

Will you claim that Christianity makes most sense of all other religions that you didn't investigate?

Or will you say you were a good and moral man?

Or do you have something better?

Will you feel stupid if god hates Christians the same way Christian god hates other religions?

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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03-02-2014, 03:51 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 03:43 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And when did you stop beating your wife?

Never. Drinking Beverage

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03-02-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  Simple premise. If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong, and you die only to wake up standing before the God of the bible, what will you say?

You gave me no proof.

You should have done miricals in my time..

Will you try and turn things on God and put Him on the defensive?

Why do kids get cancer
Why do babies in Africa get aids or starve to death etc..

Or will you say you were a good and moral man?

Or will you be judged and go with what Christ decides?

Or do you have something better?

First of all, we've all seen this tactic by Christians. Taken to its natural conclusion it's Pascal's Wager, but even when it isn't extended that far, it's still about getting us to engage deeply enough in the hypothetical that we stop caring whether it's true or not. It's tiresome and obnoxious and... well, REPETITIVE to the point of harassment. Like one of those blinking, flashing banner ads informing you that you're the 1 millionth visitor to a website and which take over your audio and blast out at you "CONGRATULATIONS YOU'VE WON!" past midnight while the other people in your household are trying to sleep. You know how those make you want to put a fist through your monitor, every... single... time? That's how we feel about the sort of question you're posing except it typically comes at us from friends, family, coworkers, or random people off the street.

But okay, let's break this down. What's my strategy?

I don't have one. I also don't have a strategy for if Martians invade or for the zombie apocalypse, and I don't have any big plans about what I'll do if I win ten million dollars in a raffle. Like most very low-odds scenarios, I have not planned for it. However, I can speculate as to how things will go in this hypothetical.

First, if it's actually the god of the literalist's Bible? I'm toast. I won't GET to say anything. I'll get all the warning, explanation, and right of petition of a two-year-old the day that Lot left Sodom. Whatever that dude's going to do to me, it will be painful and humiliating and totally without my input. If I'm lucky, I'd get a brief moment to flip the old Geezer the bird for (a) creating evil, (b) being a genocidal megalomaniac, and © condemning billions to eternal torture for not believing when he'd engineered my entire life so that I would never once be presented with credible evidence or argument that would compel or even tempt me to belief. But I wouldn't KNOW that it was the God of the Bible, or even have opportunity to comprehend that, so I wouldn't get the fleeting satisfaction.

But okay, you're obviously not painting the scenario that way. Okay, so it's God-of-the-Bible-esque, but without all that fridge horror that most Christians tend not to notice.

So this brings me to an interesting problem with the scenario. How do I KNOW this is the God of the Bible? It's a hypothetical of the scenario, sure, but that doesn't automatically mean that within the scenario I know it. How does scenario-me know it? Is there some magical recognition implanted in my head with total certainty? I wouldn't trust it, because I've had moments in my life (usually in the groggy moments after I just woke up) when I've been absolutely sure of something that was nonsensical. Experience tells me that I am fallible in this respect, and thus I distrust my brain when it insists that I have absolute knowledge of something with no recollection or even formulation of how I might have acquired it. What else? Suppose it communicates with me, and knows everything about me and everything about everything else... except I can only verify that with my own knowledge, so the furthest I can confirm is that it is at least as knowledgeable as me. At what point do I think, hey, I vaguely remember a car crash and an ambulance ride, how do I know that this smart dude who knows everything I know is just a product of me hallucinating a narrative doubtless arising from a trope within my culture? That would TOTALLY fit with known facts. So how do I distinguish between these possibilities?

But okay, let's say we get past all of that. It's the God of the Bible, except somehow it's not the evil monstrosity of the old testament that would damn me sooner than hear two words from me, and that's totally non-contradictory, and somehow I GET all that, even though there's really no valid epistemological method that could get me there from here. At that point, I probably say, screw defending myself, I've finally got PROOF (of some ill-defined, hypothetical nature, but solid enough in the scenario). At this point, the name of the game for me isn't to get into the sky before I land in the fire, it's to acquire a crapload of knowledge about something that was previously unknowable.

Somewhere along the line, I might acquire the knowledge that, hey, there's actually a Hell and I've only got a few minutes more to keep my ass out of it, at which point I say, I never had an option to believe, because there was never sufficient evidence and belief is a subconscious process, so how about we stop pretending that there is any choice I made for me to actually defend. Asking to be forgiven for not having the omniscience to know which of the gazillions of religions out there had the truth (or that ANY of them had it) is a bit like apologizing for lacking the leg musculature to jump to the moon.

Which brings me to an interesting question for the OP: Assuming you're Christian and not an atheist playing hypotheticals, how do YOU know? At some point in your life someone presented the various claims of Christianity to you, and you accepted them as true. Why? What was it that moved you from "hey, new ideas, do I trust them or not?" to "Yeah, totally into that." And the twin question... is that a good reason to believe something, in general?

For example, let's say you believed because you read it in the Bible. Is the fact that it's written in an old religious text a good reason to believe it? (If so, lemme point you at the Tao te Ching.) Or maybe you got it from your parents. Is the fact that your parents believed it a good reason to believe it yourself? Should I believe it's false because my parents believed its false? Do you believe it because you think it's comforting? Is thinking that something is comforting a good reason to believe it's true? Is my own comfort worth, say, ostracizing my gay friends and family, or supporting laws to compel Christian instruction in public schools? If believing it because it's supposedly comforting was a good reason before, is it a good reason after those strings get tacked on?

So tell me, what's your reason for believing, and would you consider that a good reason to believe anything else?
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03-02-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 02:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  Simple premise. If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong, and you die only to wake up standing before the God of the bible, what will you say?

You gave me no proof.

You should have done miricals in my time..

Will you try and turn things on God and put Him on the defensive?

Why do kids get cancer
Why do babies in Africa get aids or starve to death etc..

Or will you say you were a good and moral man?

Or will you be judged and go with what Christ decides?

Or do you have something better?


(This is not my creative work, but it seemed a better response than anything I'd care to write. Full credit in the link at the bottom.)


“But what if you’re wrong?” So goes the common questions posed to atheists by Christians. Putting aside for a moment the obvious retort (what if they are wrong and another religion is right?) I decided to really organize my thoughts a bit. What would I say if I was wrong, the Christians were right, and a moment after dying I found myself before the blinding majesty of Yahweh with Christ at his right hand?

Oh. Oh dear. I see. Well, I guess this is about as close to incontrovertible evidence for your existence as I could have ever demanded. Actually, as a good skeptic I pray you won’t get offended if I entertain the possibility that I’m experiencing a hypoxia-induced hallucination. But, I’ll just go along with this for now.

I’m not going to kneel or anything if you don’t mind. That would kind of be shutting the barn door after the cows have run out, don’t you think? Besides: by your will, I was thrust into life in a very undignified manner and state, so the least you could do would be to let me leave it in better circumstances. And really, that would be the very, very least you could do. You know, now that the initial shock of being dead is starting to wear off, I find myself getting angry. I’m trying to restrain it, but this whole situation is… absurd. According to most accounts, this is the part where you judge me. Who the hell are you to be a moral judge? You’re a sadistic, genocidal sex-obsessed tyrant. All my life, I laughed off those Christians who accused me of “hating God”. Like I told them, it wasn’t that I hated you; I just genuinely didn’t think you existed. But I did hate the idea of you. I didn’t see evidence to believe in any gods, but you in particular seemed like a logical contradiction. I was glad that the Bible was a work of-seeming-fiction because the belief that all of the most terrible things in the world were, at the worst, designed by or, at the best, permitted by an all-powerful conscious being was too horrible to not hate. It’s oddly refreshing to find that all this time I was outraged at something more tangible.

Or is this the part where your grand plan is revealed, your “mysterious ways” made clear? Will you say the magic words and suddenly I’ll understand how a child being raped, murdered, and left in a ditch fits in with you infinite benevolence? Will starvation and disease make sense? Because you know, I don’t think I want them to make sense. If that’s part of your omniscient knowledge, then I don’t want that part. I guess its fitting: humanity’s first act of defiance was to want knowledge to be more like you. Then let my last act of defiance be choosing ignorance so that I can be as unlike you as possible.

This is all perfectly futile. You know me better than anyone. You know my mind. You know how I thought. You know – and had the power over- all the circumstances in my life that meant you very existence seemed impossible to me. After all, you “knit me together in my mother’s womb,” didn’t you? So am I just a casualty of free will, then? You wanted worship from people who could choose to worship you and, to satisfy your ego, decided it was a fair price to create people whom you knew wouldn’t choose you and would face eternal torture for it. You know, even if almost everything had been perfect, a world free from pain and death where everyone would freely choose to spend an eternity with you – except for one person, and yet you made him anyways… then you would still be infinitely more evil than all the worst of humanity combined. You’re going to judge me? On behalf of all that’s good and decent in your creation, I judge you. I may have been a willful child, but you were a terrible father.

I can’t say I’m really inclined to beg for my soul now, given what I said about you knowing me perfectly. Even so, supposing mercy’s still an option (and that last rant didn’t kill my chances), I guess it’s worth a shot. I can’t pretend I have any love for you, but no principle is worth being damned over if it can be helped. What shall I say in my defense?

I tried to be good without you. You told your followers to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and visit the sick. I did those things, not because you told me to or because I thought I was “storing up treasure in heaven”. I did them for their own sake, for the sake of my neighbors. When I saw suffering, I tried to help instead of saying a quick prayer to you and believing I’d done something. And when I didn’t help and suffering continued, I held myself responsible instead of concluding it was just your divine will.

And I was content with one life- in fact, despite how terrible life could be, I was usually quite grateful to have one. I didn’t demand more. I was content to create my own meaning in the meaningless chaos, to find love in all the pain, to find the beautiful simplicity in the apparent complexity. And I have to say, you may have failed basic ethics but you sure had a deft hand when it came to creating the cosmos – not least because you did it in such a way as to make yourself seem irrelevant. The splendor of the night sky, the incredible diversity of life, everything. Quantum mechanics? That was crazy, I loved it! And relativity? You were on a roll that day, really. I saw nearly all of your creation for what it was: wonderful. I didn’t look at an exquisitely intricate world and call it fallen. I didn’t look at a newborn baby and call it sinful. I didn’t look at my seemingly finite life and call it inadequate.

So you created us because you desired companionship and love? Well then, you needed me. But I didn’t need you. I grew up and took responsibility for my own life. If that really is the greatest crime of all, then there’s nothing more I can say. The deck was stacked against me, but honestly, I can’t truly say I have any regrets. Heaven, hell, oblivion… your move, God.

Though I still think I’m probably hallucinating.


http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/what...ly-happens

bloody beautiful, thanks for posting
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03-02-2014, 04:16 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 04:09 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  Simple premise. If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong, and you die only to wake up standing before the God of the bible, what will you say?

You gave me no proof.

You should have done miricals in my time..

Will you try and turn things on God and put Him on the defensive?

Why do kids get cancer
Why do babies in Africa get aids or starve to death etc..

Or will you say you were a good and moral man?

Or will you be judged and go with what Christ decides?

Or do you have something better?

First of all, we've all seen this tactic by Christians. Taken to its natural conclusion it's Pascal's Wager, but even when it isn't extended that far, it's still about getting us to engage deeply enough in the hypothetical that we stop caring whether it's true or not. It's tiresome and obnoxious and... well, REPETITIVE to the point of harassment. Like one of those blinking, flashing banner ads informing you that you're the 1 millionth visitor to a website and which take over your audio and blast out at you "CONGRATULATIONS YOU'VE WON!" past midnight while the other people in your household are trying to sleep. You know how those make you want to put a fist through your monitor, every... single... time? That's how we feel about the sort of question you're posing except it typically comes at us from friends, family, coworkers, or random people off the street.

But okay, let's break this down. What's my strategy?

I don't have one. I also don't have a strategy for if Martians invade or for the zombie apocalypse, and I don't have any big plans about what I'll do if I win ten million dollars in a raffle. Like most very low-odds scenarios, I have not planned for it. However, I can speculate as to how things will go in this hypothetical.

First, if it's actually the god of the literalist's Bible? I'm toast. I won't GET to say anything. I'll get all the warning, explanation, and right of petition of a two-year-old the day that Lot left Sodom. Whatever that dude's going to do to me, it will be painful and humiliating and totally without my input. If I'm lucky, I'd get a brief moment to flip the old Geezer the bird for (a) creating evil, (b) being a genocidal megalomaniac, and © condemning billions to eternal torture for not believing when he'd engineered my entire life so that I would never once be presented with credible evidence or argument that would compel or even tempt me to belief. But I wouldn't KNOW that it was the God of the Bible, or even have opportunity to comprehend that, so I wouldn't get the fleeting satisfaction.

But okay, you're obviously not painting the scenario that way. Okay, so it's God-of-the-Bible-esque, but without all that fridge horror that most Christians tend not to notice.

So this brings me to an interesting problem with the scenario. How do I KNOW this is the God of the Bible? It's a hypothetical of the scenario, sure, but that doesn't automatically mean that within the scenario I know it. How does scenario-me know it? Is there some magical recognition implanted in my head with total certainty? I wouldn't trust it, because I've had moments in my life (usually in the groggy moments after I just woke up) when I've been absolutely sure of something that was nonsensical. Experience tells me that I am fallible in this respect, and thus I distrust my brain when it insists that I have absolute knowledge of something with no recollection or even formulation of how I might have acquired it. What else? Suppose it communicates with me, and knows everything about me and everything about everything else... except I can only verify that with my own knowledge, so the furthest I can confirm is that it is at least as knowledgeable as me. At what point do I think, hey, I vaguely remember a car crash and an ambulance ride, how do I know that this smart dude who knows everything I know is just a product of me hallucinating a narrative doubtless arising from a trope within my culture? That would TOTALLY fit with known facts. So how do I distinguish between these possibilities?

But okay, let's say we get past all of that. It's the God of the Bible, except somehow it's not the evil monstrosity of the old testament that would damn me sooner than hear two words from me, and that's totally non-contradictory, and somehow I GET all that, even though there's really no valid epistemological method that could get me there from here. At that point, I probably say, screw defending myself, I've finally got PROOF (of some ill-defined, hypothetical nature, but solid enough in the scenario). At this point, the name of the game for me isn't to get into the sky before I land in the fire, it's to acquire a crapload of knowledge about something that was previously unknowable.

Somewhere along the line, I might acquire the knowledge that, hey, there's actually a Hell and I've only got a few minutes more to keep my ass out of it, at which point I say, I never had an option to believe, because there was never sufficient evidence and belief is a subconscious process, so how about we stop pretending that there is any choice I made for me to actually defend. Asking to be forgiven for not having the omniscience to know which of the gazillions of religions out there had the truth (or that ANY of them had it) is a bit like apologizing for lacking the leg musculature to jump to the moon.

Which brings me to an interesting question for the OP: Assuming you're Christian and not an atheist playing hypotheticals, how do YOU know? At some point in your life someone presented the various claims of Christianity to you, and you accepted them as true. Why? What was it that moved you from "hey, new ideas, do I trust them or not?" to "Yeah, totally into that." And the twin question... is that a good reason to believe something, in general?

For example, let's say you believed because you read it in the Bible. Is the fact that it's written in an old religious text a good reason to believe it? (If so, lemme point you at the Tao te Ching.) Or maybe you got it from your parents. Is the fact that your parents believed it a good reason to believe it yourself? Should I believe it's false because my parents believed its false? Do you believe it because you think it's comforting? Is thinking that something is comforting a good reason to believe it's true? Is my own comfort worth, say, ostracizing my gay friends and family, or supporting laws to compel Christian instruction in public schools? If believing it because it's supposedly comforting was a good reason before, is it a good reason after those strings get tacked on?

So tell me, what's your reason for believing, and would you consider that a good reason to believe anything else?

Also beautiful, thank you
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03-02-2014, 04:18 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
If I died and found myself in a situation as described by adherents of Christianity I'd continue doing what I have always tried to do. That is, approach each new situation without any assumptions and try to gather evidence. So my first questions would be:

Who are you, what are you and what do you want?
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03-02-2014, 04:20 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
I'd shrug and ask "Can you blame me?"

Depending on his response, I may either demand he explain a few things (cancer, starving kids, the imperfection of his original design, etc.) or tell him to fuck himself. I'd say it directly to his unseeable face.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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03-02-2014, 04:46 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong

The chances are pretty slim old bean Wink As in, close to zero, in my estimation. YMMV, but you've just asked me what I'd do if I travelled to the North pole and met Santa, basically. I can answer the question but it's not terribly edifying. What would *you* do if you met Santa ? See ? It's F.A.N.T.A.S.Y. Not real. I prefer to waste my time with real stuff.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-02-2014, 04:48 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 02:13 AM)Drich Wrote:  I don't have one. I'm looking to take Christ up on his offer of atonement. Therefore no judgement.

Atonement as in 'accounting for your sins'?
Or atonement as in 'forgiving your sins'?

If the latter, it would explain the immorality of christianity.

Drinking Beverage

Btw, that's not coffee in that cup. It's a Johnny Walker Black that I'd be sharing with Hitch while the devil rustles up some hookers and drugs as a reward for being "one of his boys".

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03-02-2014, 05:18 AM
RE: Your judgement day defense strageity?
(03-02-2014 04:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:50 AM)Drich Wrote:  If this whole atheism thing turns out to be wrong

The chances are pretty slim old bean Wink As in, close to zero, in my estimation. YMMV, but you've just asked me what I'd do if I travelled to the North pole and met Santa, basically. I can answer the question but it's not terribly edifying. What would *you* do if you met Santa ? See ? It's F.A.N.T.A.S.Y. Not real. I prefer to waste my time with real stuff.

How do you know the chances? How do you know it's fantasy? Why are you camparing a supposedly perfect being to an easily disproven child's myth? How do you know if anything is real?

Truth seeker.
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