Your worldview destroyed with two questions
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11-05-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(11-05-2017 08:59 AM)true scotsman Wrote:   Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

No. The God of the Bible is an incoherent mass of inconsistencies, jingo, tribalism and mistranslation. If it did exist that "deity" would be too busy raving into its dribble bib to even notice us, much less reveal anything.

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11-05-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

Well, the problem here is the Bible is full of contradictions, faux history, stupidities, obvious nonsense and idle tall tales. So obviously the Bible has nothing to do wit revelations from God.

So the real question is, why would anybody believe this book of nonsense at all?
For many people, it ca be chalked up to ignorance, but many apologists abandon logic and reason to remain true believers. The real question is, why do people do that?

In the OT, God is represented as appearing to the Israelites on numerous occasions. Being seen by Moses, 72 elders of Israeli, preceding the Israelites as a pillar of smoke or fire. But now we see no sign of God. If God exists, why not?
Of course if that was merely ancient tall tales, that explains that.

The bible promises us great miracle working abilities, that never were seen as promised and aren't seen now. If those big promises are false, the Bible is false.
I think we have given God 1900 years to demonstrate his existence, and we have rather have more evidence God is a fantasy.

These are silly questions.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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11-05-2017, 08:15 PM
Your worldview destroyed with two questions
Eric Hovind and his dad are fucking idiot douchebags.


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12-05-2017, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 07:18 AM by Naielis.)
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(11-05-2017 08:59 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I came across this article and I would not have read it if I'd known it was by Eric Hovind but I read the first line and it hooked me in.

It said: What if you could destroy someone’s worldview with just two simple questions? Two very powerful, but very careful questions.

Wow, I have to see these questions and see if my worldview gets destroyed. Already I see a problem though. He makes two big mistakes right off the bat. First he mistakes a position on a single issue for a worldview and he lumps all atheists together as having the same one.

The first question asks: Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain? He then says "With this question the unbeliever is forced to say yes". Really? We're forced? That certainly isn't my answer to his question. Mine would be that in the realm of the imagination, what one imagines can do anything that the one imagines it, imagines it doing. I can say this because my worldview has a way of distinguishing that which is possible from that which is imaginary. His doesn't.

The second question: How do you know anything for certain? He goes on to say "this question focuses on the fact that ultimately an unbeliever will have to say that he cannot know anything for certain." Where has he established this? Has he checked every worldview. Obviously not mine because my worldview begins with 4 incontestable certainties. He'll have a hard row to hoe if he thinks he can refute them since he would have to accept them in order to try to refute them.

So what say you? Did your worldview get destroyed by his very powerful, very careful questions?

Hovind's line is a very poor attempt at presuppositional apologetics. Van Til's argument was that the unbeliever lacks the epistemic autonomy from God needed to not believe in him. That is to say that we can't even make claims like "I don't believe" is to make truth statements and assume things about reality that would require the Christian God is real. He claims that the unbeliever can't account for the laws of logic or the uniform nature of the universe (physical laws). Then, with this setup, Van Til claims he knows things because God has revealed things to him in such a way that he can't be wrong about them. God has given him a hotline to truth. The main issues:

1. Many worldviews can account for the uniformity of nature and the laws of logic.

2. Listing problems in other worldviews doesn't validate your own. And this is why the apologist is forced to say they can show a fundamental flaw in all unbelieving worldviews by showing that all unbelieving worldviews lack necessary qualities for intelligibility. But they never actually demonstrate this sweeping rebuttal of all unbelieving worldviews at once. They resort to either questioning their opponent about their worldview or attacking another particular worldview. So the whole attempt is moot.

3. The Christian worldview of revelation doesn't avoid the radical skepticism that they use in their apologetic. The unbeliever claims basic human reasoning (intuition thesis) as the grounding of basic beliefs. The apologist rejects this as arbitrary assumption because basic beliefs can't be justified by other beliefs. However, the revelation of God fails to supply the certainty needed for their apologetic. There are several points where one could question the apologist. How does God give you this information in such a way that it instantly grants knowledge? What reason do you have to believe the revelation? How do you know the information you call the revelation is from a God external to you? It follows the same type of foundationalist thesis where innate understanding is assumed to tell you something about the external world. This is an axiomatic system. The apologist escapes this by grounding their knowledge in the nature of the revelation. They assume the Christian ontology in order to demonstrate the Christian epistemology is true.

4. And that brings us to the final issue. The whole process ends with circularity. Many apologists claim there is no problem with circular argumentation. This is because they need circular reasoning for their worldview. They need to assume the Christian ontology to ground the Christian epistemology and they need to assume the Christian epistemology to justify the ontology. It's clear that these are just two assumptions. With this, the worldview falls flat on its face. It commits the very crime it claims to condemn.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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12-05-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(11-05-2017 08:15 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  Eric Hovind and his dad are fucking idiot douchebags.


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The funniest part is they are feuding right now; or at least they were last year. Kent says Eric stole all his business from him and that Eric won't speak to him.
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12-05-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(11-05-2017 08:59 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  The first question asks: Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

The second question: How do you know anything for certain?

Did your worldview get destroyed by his very powerful, very careful questions?

The first question: If there was a God who was all-powerful, he could control my mind in such a way as to make me think I know something for certain. However, that would not mean I actually was correct, since that would depend on independent corroboration.

The second question: Feeling I know is based on brain chemistry which can be misleading. Real knowledge depends on evidence and is always a matter of degrees and probabilities. It is not binary at all.

Third question: No, my worldview is not destroyed, though the Christian worldview took another hit.
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12-05-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
Props to all of you for even engaging with this bullshit; in one sense it's a form of Stoopid that exceeds even what I was indoctrinated with. In another way, it's the sort of facile line of questioning that tries to entrap those who are honest but not vigilant participants in a conversation. In other words it requires experience and meta-awareness to deny such an interlocutor false claims of victory, despite it being at its core epically stupid. Life is too short to work so hard for so little.
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12-05-2017, 05:17 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(11-05-2017 08:59 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I came across this article and I would not have read it if I'd known it was by Eric Hovind but I read the first line and it hooked me in.

It said: What if you could destroy someone’s worldview with just two simple questions? Two very powerful, but very careful questions.

Wow, I have to see these questions and see if my worldview gets destroyed. Already I see a problem though. He makes two big mistakes right off the bat. First he mistakes a position on a single issue for a worldview and he lumps all atheists together as having the same one.

The first question asks: Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain? He then says "With this question the unbeliever is forced to say yes". Really? We're forced? That certainly isn't my answer to his question. Mine would be that in the realm of the imagination, what one imagines can do anything that the one imagines it, imagines it doing. I can say this because my worldview has a way of distinguishing that which is possible from that which is imaginary. His doesn't.

The second question: How do you know anything for certain? He goes on to say "this question focuses on the fact that ultimately an unbeliever will have to say that he cannot know anything for certain." Where has he established this? Has he checked every worldview. Obviously not mine because my worldview begins with 4 incontestable certainties. He'll have a hard row to hoe if he thinks he can refute them since he would have to accept them in order to try to refute them.

So what say you? Did your worldview get destroyed by his very powerful, very careful questions?

not at all.

"If" yeah, so what, I might as well go with atheism's personal meaning just as soon as their personal meaning.

How about forming an observational based belief so personal meaning bs can stay in the compost pile.
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12-05-2017, 05:21 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
Quote:Is it possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us in such a way that we can know them for certain?

Which bible? Which version of the bible? The fact that there are multiple versions of the bible invalidates that whole "divine inspiration" thing. Especially since there is no single version of the bible that everyone agrees is "THE" bible.

Moving on though, we can discount the validity of ALL versions of the bible, since all of them contain glaring inaccuracies, contradictions, commands to commit atrocities, logical fallacies and failed prophecies.

So, the answer is a resounding NO. The bible god is fictional, created by illiterate primitives and the only things it reveals are the unflattering traits of it's creators.

Quote:With this question the unbeliever is forced to say yes.

Nope. See above.

Quote:How do you know anything for certain?

Technically we can't. We base our understanding of reality on the information we receive through our senses and our interpretation of that data. Since our senses are subject to failure, we have to acknowledge that they could be wrong.

So what we do is simple. We base our understanding of reality on the presupposition that our senses are accurate until it is proven otherwise. Presuppositions are flawed since they lack supporting evidence. The trick is to make as few of them as possible. That is why evidence based systems, like science, are superior to faith based systems like religion.

Science presupposes that the universe is consistent and that we are capable of understanding it. Religion piles presupposition atop of presupposition and continues to do so, long past any chance of validity.

Quote:this question focuses on the fact that ultimately an unbeliever will have to say that he cannot know anything for certain.

No one can know anything for certain, whether they are a believer or unbeliever. Anyone who claims to know anything for certain is lying.

Quote:Obviously not mine because my worldview begins with 4 incontestable certainties.


Could you elaborate?

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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12-05-2017, 05:23 PM
RE: Your worldview destroyed with two questions
(12-05-2017 08:39 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(11-05-2017 08:15 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  Eric Hovind and his dad are fucking idiot douchebags.


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The funniest part is they are feuding right now; or at least they were last year. Kent says Eric stole all his business from him and that Eric won't speak to him.

So he admits that his whole shtick is a business? Based on financial gain?

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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