Zero Tolerance Policies
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21-03-2011, 06:52 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
Yellow - I suggest you go read the actual Amendment. And, that's a pretty big leap from defending yourself at work to standing up to a tyrannical government. And, no, you don't have the right to just start shooting people.

Gaglamesh - we're not talking about crimes here. You asked me about places of employment. If you get into a fight at work, you can expect not to be working there much longer. If you're being bullied at work and you chose to deal with it on your own by picking up the other guy and body slamming, expect to be unemployed. Now, if a fellow employee takes a swing at you and you defend yourself in the moment, then who knows. Your employer may fire you or they may not. But, for the most part you are what's called an "at will" employee, which means they can fire you for almost any, or no, reason at all (as long as the reason is not discriminatory like based on race, religion, sex, etc.).

As for the crime aspect of it, you have the right to defend yourself and to use force but only to the extent that the force is equivalent and proportional to what is being used against you. This changes some on a state-by-state basis but as a general rule if someone comes up and starts throwing punches at you and you over power and subdue him, you're not going to be at risk for any criminal prosecution. However, if someone punches you in the stomach and you pull out a Glock and blow him into a red mist then you're most probably going to spend a very long time in a very small and confined space. And, if you're in a state that has the death penalty, you better hope you have a jury of people who have been bullied.

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21-03-2011, 08:48 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
(21-03-2011 06:52 PM)BnW Wrote:  Yellow - I suggest you go read the actual Amendment. And, that's a pretty big leap from defending yourself at work to standing up to a tyrannical government. And, no, you don't have the right to just start shooting people.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense

Show me one law that says I have no right to defend myself at work. One law in any US state. Or even any case law.

Also show me where I said I have the right to "just" start shooting people. How did you even get to that conclusion?

I did my homework. Now you do yours.

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21-03-2011, 09:23 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
Yellow you're a police officer, your job entails using a gun (occasionally). A factory worker cannot take his '45 into the factory or he will be fired. Most jobs have strict policies on actions and when fights break out it's generally the policy to get rid of anyone who causes trouble, no matter what the blame. Even a work place that allows concealed weapons will not allow workers to have them (most of the time). Private businesses are able to make rules of their own accord for their staff, they can't shirk all rights but they are perfectly capable of keeping a few down.

And the 2nd amendment really is only talking about firearms and militia. It has nothing to do with the workplace. Also remember that this amendment is the most contended and state by state laws dealing with it change immensely.

The right of self defense protects you from being prosecuted. That doesn't mean your boss gives a damn.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-03-2011, 06:06 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 06:22 AM by BnW.)
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
(21-03-2011 09:23 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  The right of self defense protects you from being prosecuted. That doesn't mean your boss gives a damn.

Bingo

Oh, you may also notice that the words "self" and "defense" do not appear anywhere in the text of the 2nd Amendment.

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22-03-2011, 08:04 AM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
@BnW - well I was asking if you worked for the government.Since the institute where the video that started this thread happened at a public school I'm putting it in the same context.
Are the rules the same for state/private ?
Is there a general consensus on the matter ?

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22-03-2011, 09:54 AM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
(22-03-2011 08:04 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  @BnW - well I was asking if you worked for the government.Since the institute where the video that started this thread happened at a public school I'm putting it in the same context.
Are the rules the same for state/private ?
Is there a general consensus on the matter ?

Oh, I missed that nuance. Sorry.

I think as a general rule if you get into a fight at work you could be out of a job. Governments tend to have a lot of unions, though, and once you add unions into the mix it becomes far more difficult to fire people. But, with all these things I think the answer is really: "it depends". It depends on what the employer wants to do. Some may be interested in why it happened and some may not.

As for this situation, its not exactly comparable to working for the government because students are not employees. I can't speak about the UK where this incident took place, but in the US students have some serious qualifications on their rights. Regardless, we have our share of stupid zero tolerance policies for students in the US, and all of them are garbage in my opinion. Whether or not you can do the same thing to employees, the answer is "probably" as long as its not based on race, sex, religion, etc.

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22-03-2011, 08:11 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
My challenge is still open. Until I see the evidence, everything else is lip service. No disrespect.

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22-03-2011, 09:30 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 09:33 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
(22-03-2011 08:11 PM)ConditionYellow Wrote:  My challenge is still open. Until I see the evidence, everything else is lip service. No disrespect.

Challenge? Reads first thing again. These are generalities not definitive statements. Do teachers feel these things are really helpful? Rich schools follow these policies often due to keeping the families believing they are the safest schools, and poor schools the teachers in general don't care much what happens to the kids. Poor areas have difficult children so many teachers in those areas get disgruntled and snap on any student that does something outside the class plan.

I've never met a teacher or administrator who felt these things should be done, but nowadays generally what they state is that all they can do is whatever the parents suggest, and zero tolerance is better than 100% tolerance. They use the guidelines because they'll be sued for anything else. This is something that only recently started (30 years ago or so these events were set in motion), so while people keep freaking out over children being mistreated they never really create rules that will allow teachers to manage the children they have to handle.

Is that answer enough?

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-03-2011, 09:34 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
I know this going to sound crazy, but instead of blindly following a book, how about an administrator or even (gasp!) a teacher look at each case individually and decide if it merits action.

Blindly following a book? I believe most of us are against that very thing.

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22-03-2011, 10:24 PM
RE: Zero Tolerance Policies
We are, but if the principle suspended the one kid for bullying but not the other who fought back they risk a law suit for not being fair. Zero tolerance is something passed by the worrying parents so that things never happen. In todays' world it's easier to sue a teacher than to spank your child, and more beneficial. Who cares if your child grows up wrong if you can make millions off of their mistakes? In the US most states have been looking to pass anti bullying laws which give actual measures and address this problem, but in the same respect the tea party is trying to keep so much definition from entering the government. Until there are mandates that give teachers the authority over other people's children while in school it's going to stay like this.

No one likes the way things are, but a majority of parents don't want their kid to be the exception to this fairness policy. Had the defender not suffered the same penalty the mother of the bully would most likely be up in arms over the unfairness of the situation, and how schools need to be fair to all children.

Public schools are now in a position where they simply sit on their hands for most things because if they act out on their own it will cost an incredible amount. They don't get paid enough to deal with lawsuit happy parents.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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