Zhou Enlai
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30-05-2013, 06:31 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
What about the 36million that lost their lives?

Mao still your hero?

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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30-05-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
(30-05-2013 06:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  What about the 36million that lost their lives?

Mao still your hero?

36 million according to who? http://books.google.com/books?id=nadqrYU...ng&f=false

Here is part of a book written by a chinese journalist however his sources are from two anti-communist researchers Banister and Coale.

Banister and Coale didn't use any kind of scientific counting involved at all in racking their figures of deaths. http://weeklybolshevik.wordpress.com/201...-ideology/

According to figures, Indias death rate was similar to Chinas during the same period. Yet of course, famine in a capitalist country doesn't make you mad. Since when did you start caring about victims of famine? Do you even know of or care of the famines going on in capitalist countries in Africa?
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30-05-2013, 07:33 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
Yes, because India was just so capitalist in the period. Huh?

Millions of people did die under Communist rule in China. Good freaking luck denying that one. But it's not like it was intentional. I'll defend them as far as I defend Stalin's early administration in the 1930s (deliberate Ukrainian genocide MY ASS - oh, the emigrés got a lot of anti-Soviet mileage out of that one). Never attribute to evil what can be explained by incompetence, as the old saying goes.

Famines are triggered by weather (crop failure) and sustained by incompetence. That's incompetence in two senses, either of poor planning and leadership or of simply being incapable of acting in the scope necessary. The extremely centralised state built in the Soviet Union, and China, and India for that matter (seriously, they were so totally not capitalists at the time), wasn't capable of responding effectively to a crisis.

This is in contrast to the regular famines during Warlord-era China in the 1920s, when equally severe famine was exacerbated by the small size and complete powerlessness of whatever governments happened to be around (cf Somalia today).
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30-05-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
(30-05-2013 07:33 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, because India was just so capitalist in the period. Huh?

Millions of people did die under Communist rule in China. Good freaking luck denying that one. But it's not like it was intentional. I'll defend them as far as I defend Stalin's early administration in the 1930s (deliberate Ukrainian genocide MY ASS - oh, the emigrés got a lot of anti-Soviet mileage out of that one). Never attribute to evil what can be explained by incompetence, as the old saying goes.

Famines are triggered by weather (crop failure) and sustained by incompetence. That's incompetence in two senses, either of poor planning and leadership or of simply being incapable of acting in the scope necessary. The extremely centralised state built in the Soviet Union, and China, and India for that matter (seriously, they were so totally not capitalists at the time), wasn't capable of responding effectively to a crisis.

This is in contrast to the regular famines during Warlord-era China in the 1920s, when equally severe famine was exacerbated by the small size and complete powerlessness of whatever governments happened to be around (cf Somalia today).

Why aren't events in India also highlighted in the capitalist press? Here is why, if you highlight a harvest failure and it's results in a communist government and don't do that for non-communist countries like current ones in Africa, then basically you are only pointing out famines for propaganda reasons and not for reasons of a real honest study of famines.
One example of many I could bring up: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/02/...e-20130503
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30-05-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
(30-05-2013 07:53 AM)I and I Wrote:  Why aren't events in India also highlighted in the capitalist press? Here is why, if you highlight a harvest failure and it's results in a communist government and don't do that for non-communist countries like current ones in Africa, then basically you are only pointing out famines for propaganda reasons and not for reasons of a real honest study of famines.
One example of many I could bring up: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/02/...e-20130503

India's ineffectual flailing WAS talked about in the press - at the time, anyway. Hindu rate of growth, and all that. It's been largely forgotten, which is probably not good thing, but that's not least because the Indians themselves are not so keen on remembering their own failures. The average person doesn't know jack from shit anyway, beyond that there is famine in "Africa" (or even "Asia); the likely spin there is racist, not economic ideology!

The article you linked IS highlighting a harvest failure in a non-communist country, so I'm not sure what your point was there. It specifically mentions outlying weather patterns, and governmental incompetence on behalf of the fractious Islamic fundamentalists controlling most of the country (and, Western nations withholding aid from said regions).
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30-05-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
(30-05-2013 09:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-05-2013 07:53 AM)I and I Wrote:  Why aren't events in India also highlighted in the capitalist press? Here is why, if you highlight a harvest failure and it's results in a communist government and don't do that for non-communist countries like current ones in Africa, then basically you are only pointing out famines for propaganda reasons and not for reasons of a real honest study of famines.
One example of many I could bring up: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/02/...e-20130503

India's ineffectual flailing WAS talked about in the press - at the time, anyway. Hindu rate of growth, and all that. It's been largely forgotten, which is probably not good thing, but that's not least because the Indians themselves are not so keen on remembering their own failures. The average person doesn't know jack from shit anyway, beyond that there is famine in "Africa" (or even "Asia); the likely spin there is racist, not economic ideology!

The article you linked IS highlighting a harvest failure in a non-communist country, so I'm not sure what your point was there. It specifically mentions outlying weather patterns, and governmental incompetence on behalf of the fractious Islamic fundamentalists controlling most of the country (and, Western nations withholding aid from said regions).

Death rates in India being similar to death rates in China during the 50's shows that what is called a famine is purely political, and what is attributed to the causes of a famine is purely political, example: all famines under communist countries are barely attributed to weather or crop failure and are mainly attributed to or implies some purposeful planned famine by their leaders. Famines in capitalist countries which occur all the fucking time never get that spin put on them at all. A famine in a capitalist country is always accidental, a famine in a communist country is caused by purposeful planning by an evil leader.
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02-06-2013, 03:19 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
I concur with you, sir.

these times there is a famine going on in the state of Maharashtra of India which is the most developed state of India. 85% of the state has been affected with alarming lack of water. This is a man made drought with scarce water resources being diverted for vested interests according to their vote bank and money capacities.

During the period from 2002 - 2009 there was farmer suicides in India on a very large scale due removal of subsidies and many state governments were voted out of power due to his calamity and the central government lost the elections. But the western governments were in praise of the existing government. Capitalists were praising that government saying they are market friendly and what not. THEN SURPRISE THIS MARKET FRIENDLY GOVERNMENT FELL ON ITS FACE. LOST HEAVILY, AND ARE STILL TRYING TO COME TO POWER.
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02-06-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
Let us ignore numbers about famine deaths and return to the original proposal. I think most of the recent posters here agree that propagandists will distort numbers if it suits them.

Zhou Enlai was associated with Mao and therefore any thinking leftest should not embrace him. Mao and his cronies with the opportunity to change the culture in one of the worlds most talented countries chose the path of authoritarianism and suppression. Properly done this change could have effected politics world wide. Instead they became a model for how leftist regimes are as flawed as capitalist regimes.

They left a legacy which is damaging China still as witness their massive CO2 outputs and recent obtrusive territorial claims in the south China Sea.

A "Peoples Republic" should be that, a place where the peoples interests are paramount not the interests of the "leaders".
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02-06-2013, 10:36 AM
Zhou Enlai
(02-06-2013 10:06 AM)JAH Wrote:  Let us ignore numbers about famine deaths and return to the original proposal. I think most of the recent posters here agree that propagandists will distort numbers if it suits them.

Zhou Enlai was associated with Mao and therefore any thinking leftest should not embrace him. Mao and his cronies with the opportunity to change the culture in one of the worlds most talented countries chose the path of authoritarianism and suppression. Properly done this change could have effected politics world wide. Instead they became a model for how leftist regimes are as flawed as capitalist regimes.

They left a legacy which is damaging China still as witness their massive CO2 outputs and recent obtrusive territorial claims in the south China Sea.

A "Peoples Republic" should be that, a place where the peoples interests are paramount not the interests of the "leaders".

How is china any more totalitarian than the U.S.?
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02-06-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Zhou Enlai
(30-05-2013 06:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  "40 million others failed to be born" what the fuck? How are hypothetical non existant human beings counted as victims of a famine?

My hypothetical marriage to Eva Mendez is verging on divorce because we haven't met.

Rolleyes

And you can't seem to spell her name right...like she would give you a second look anyway.

Ever think the 40 million that failed to be born could be in part made up of babies that didn't make it to term because there mothers didn't.

ATTACK ATTACK Hobo

'See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way.' -JF
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