a page on new testement violence
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03-03-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: a page on new testament violence
(03-03-2014 08:51 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:44 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  It's not a "wish" upon people. It's a statement of fact.

I basically agree the Op that the New Testament is equally harsh in its assurances about the result of sin - wilful disobedience to God (Yaweh/Jehovah).

Tell that to christians who want to ignore the obvious.

Never met a Christian who didnt think God punishes the wicked.
And I wouldnt worship a God who never punishes the wicked.
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03-03-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
That article could basically be summed up as "In the Old Testament, God would kill you if you offended him. In the New Testament, he's less likely to kill you than he is to simply have you tortured for eternity."

Jesus would have come off as a lot more loving if he hadn't invented hell for Judaism.
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03-03-2014, 09:18 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 08:57 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:51 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Tell that to christians who want to ignore the obvious.

Never met a Christian who didnt think God punishes the wicked.
And I wouldnt worship a God who never punishes the wicked.

I mean cursing people for having a different belief? I should mention that killing people who aren't christian is a curse on to non christians.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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03-03-2014, 10:23 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 08:53 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  When jesus said love they neighbor it was to other christians. let me put it this way, you a in a town called christianville. Your neighbor also lives in christianville. However no body from muslimville is you neighbor because they live in a different town from christianville.

Yes, here's where Jesus says exactly that, Matthew 10:
'If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.'

This is the same chapter where he says other nice things like:
'Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.'
'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
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03-03-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
The Intolerant Ass-hole
Christian intolerance has been, and still is, a significant cause of disharmony, a fact that many people, even some Christians, acknowledge. It’s fashionable in some circles to blame churches, rather than the dogma itself, for Christian prejudice against the outsider. Yet Christians have a bigoted mentor. Jesus berated anyone who didn’t buy his message:
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)
He even threatened to burn or kill others for not believing:
“Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away—he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and they are burnt” (John 15:6, NJB.) (A similar quote is repeated in Mark 6:11.)
“Then he began to approach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you were done in Tyre or Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes, and still I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre or Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down in hell for if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. And still, I tell you that I will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)

There’s no interpretation that can tone down these atrocious tirades. Jesus had an arrogant, fanatical belief in himself, and an ambition to be in charge. He denounced anyone who didn’t worship him, and threatened violence. These aren’t the words of someone spreading peace and goodwill.

Throughout history, many Christians in positions of power have persecuted, converted or killed the outsider. Jews, Muslims, and American and African natives have been brutalized as a consequence. Christian parochialism was one of the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Imagine a world today if Jesus had consistently preached universal liberalism and love; it would probably be a far less violent and happier one!

We should be grateful that Christian violence has been curtailed over the last two centuries as humanitarian ethics have countered belligerent Christians. Some Christians, however, still unashamedly condemn unbelievers.

The Xenophobe
Most Christians assume Jesus had an affection for anyone who accepted him; that he had a personal interest in each and every individual. I think they seriously misunderstand their main man. Jesus didn’t love gentiles (who he referred to as pagans.) He told his disciples:
“Do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 10:6, NJB.)
He said:
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Matt. 15:24, NJB.)
He forbade his fellow Jews to pray like pagans:
“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7–8, NJB.)

Here is Jesus’ encounter with a Greek (i.e., non-Jewish) woman:
“He left that place and set out for the territory of Tyre. There he went into a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, but he could not pass unrecognized. A woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him straight away and came and fell at his feet. Now the woman was pagan, by birth a Syrophonecian and she begged him to cast the devil out of her daughter and he said to her ‘the children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs’. But she spoke up ‘Ah yes sir’ she replied ‘but the house dogs under the table can eat the children’s scraps’. And he said to her ‘for saying this, you may go home happy; the devil has gone out of your daughter’. So she went off to her home and found the child lying on the bed and the devil gone” (Mark 7:24–30, NJB.) Jesus was drawing an analogy. The children were the Jews, who were to be fed first. The dogs were the gentiles (when Jews wished to insult someone they often referred to them as dogs,) whom he’d rather not help. Jesus hesitated before healing the girl because her mother wasn’t Jewish.
Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there’s no record that Jesus ever preached in either, despite their size and importance, I think because they were populated almost entirely by gentiles.

He could’ve taken his mission outside Palestine. Egyptians, Greeks, Africans, and Romans might have been wowed by his words of wisdom, yet he didn’t bother with them either, as they too were in gentile territories.

I imagine Yeshua was xenophobic. He was an insurrectionist trying to start a war. Preaching platitudes to gentiles would’ve been the last thing on his mind. It’s possible these statements reflect his real attitude.

People who push the “Jesus loves you” line need to read their Bibles more carefully, and should try to understand the real history. It’s obvious Jesus didn’t love you unless you were Jewish and supported his military ambitions.
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04-03-2014, 04:21 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 10:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The Intolerant Ass-hole
Christian intolerance has been, and still is, a significant cause of disharmony, a fact that many people, even some Christians, acknowledge. It’s fashionable in some circles to blame churches, rather than the dogma itself, for Christian prejudice against the outsider. Yet Christians have a bigoted mentor. Jesus berated anyone who didn’t buy his message:
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)
He even threatened to burn or kill others for not believing:
“Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away—he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and they are burnt” (John 15:6, NJB.) (A similar quote is repeated in Mark 6:11.)
“Then he began to approach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you were done in Tyre or Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes, and still I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre or Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down in hell for if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. And still, I tell you that I will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)

There’s no interpretation that can tone down these atrocious tirades. Jesus had an arrogant, fanatical belief in himself, and an ambition to be in charge. He denounced anyone who didn’t worship him, and threatened violence. These aren’t the words of someone spreading peace and goodwill.

Throughout history, many Christians in positions of power have persecuted, converted or killed the outsider. Jews, Muslims, and American and African natives have been brutalized as a consequence. Christian parochialism was one of the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Imagine a world today if Jesus had consistently preached universal liberalism and love; it would probably be a far less violent and happier one!

We should be grateful that Christian violence has been curtailed over the last two centuries as humanitarian ethics have countered belligerent Christians. Some Christians, however, still unashamedly condemn unbelievers.

The Xenophobe
Most Christians assume Jesus had an affection for anyone who accepted him; that he had a personal interest in each and every individual. I think they seriously misunderstand their main man. Jesus didn’t love gentiles (who he referred to as pagans.) He told his disciples:
“Do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 10:6, NJB.)
He said:
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Matt. 15:24, NJB.)
He forbade his fellow Jews to pray like pagans:
“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7–8, NJB.)

Here is Jesus’ encounter with a Greek (i.e., non-Jewish) woman:
“He left that place and set out for the territory of Tyre. There he went into a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, but he could not pass unrecognized. A woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him straight away and came and fell at his feet. Now the woman was pagan, by birth a Syrophonecian and she begged him to cast the devil out of her daughter and he said to her ‘the children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs’. But she spoke up ‘Ah yes sir’ she replied ‘but the house dogs under the table can eat the children’s scraps’. And he said to her ‘for saying this, you may go home happy; the devil has gone out of your daughter’. So she went off to her home and found the child lying on the bed and the devil gone” (Mark 7:24–30, NJB.) Jesus was drawing an analogy. The children were the Jews, who were to be fed first. The dogs were the gentiles (when Jews wished to insult someone they often referred to them as dogs,) whom he’d rather not help. Jesus hesitated before healing the girl because her mother wasn’t Jewish.
Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there’s no record that Jesus ever preached in either, despite their size and importance, I think because they were populated almost entirely by gentiles.

He could’ve taken his mission outside Palestine. Egyptians, Greeks, Africans, and Romans might have been wowed by his words of wisdom, yet he didn’t bother with them either, as they too were in gentile territories.

I imagine Yeshua was xenophobic. He was an insurrectionist trying to start a war. Preaching platitudes to gentiles would’ve been the last thing on his mind. It’s possible these statements reflect his real attitude.

People who push the “Jesus loves you” line need to read their Bibles more carefully, and should try to understand the real history. It’s obvious Jesus didn’t love you unless you were Jewish and supported his military ambitions.

Bowing You sir have really read your bible, you have done well.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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04-03-2014, 05:02 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 08:57 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:51 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Tell that to christians who want to ignore the obvious.

Never met a Christian who didnt think God punishes the wicked.
And I wouldnt worship a God who never punishes the wicked.

Of course you wouldn't.

Cos you're better than those heathens, aren't you? They're gonna rot in hell while you sit in heaven and gloat. You know you'll be rewarded for all those suppressed urges. Won't be too long now...especially compared to an eternity in heaven...heh he he....you're so clever.
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04-03-2014, 05:33 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(04-03-2014 05:02 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:57 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Never met a Christian who didnt think God punishes the wicked.
And I wouldnt worship a God who never punishes the wicked.

Of course you wouldn't....

If you think rapists and their victims are morally indistinguishable you are a. Censored atheist disgrace.
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04-03-2014, 05:45 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 08:57 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:51 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Tell that to christians who want to ignore the obvious.

Never met a Christian who didnt think God punishes the wicked.
And I wouldnt worship a God who never punishes the wicked.

But what is wicked in this deity's eyes and just how moral is itself?

That it can allow 'wickedness' to begin with speaks volumes of either its incompetence, inability or indifference.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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04-03-2014, 07:12 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(04-03-2014 05:33 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  If you think rapists and their victims are morally indistinguishable you are a. Censored atheist disgrace.

Funny you should say that. In some cases, the Bible doesn't:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Quote:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

The rationale here being that if she didn't cry out, she must have wanted it. This makes sense, because, back then, a rapist didn't have a way to keep the woman from screaming. That technology didn't exist back then. So, if a guy rapes a woman in the city, keeps her from screaming, and they get caught, there is absolutely no distinction between the two.

For full context, here is the passage with the other rape laws.

Deuteronomy 22:23-29
Quote:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
So, while the latter two laws do draw a distinction, it doesn't get any less creepy in context. Yay, Biblical morality!
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