a page on new testement violence
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05-03-2014, 12:30 AM
a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 12:04 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 03:39 PM)meremortal Wrote:  And why do you need a deity to make that distinction for you? Is the threat of punishment from god the only thing keeping you from raping people?...


God and me can agree that rape is immoral for reasons quite apart from God's punishment.

God thinks rape is wrong and noboby threatens Him into thinking that.

There goes your false dilemma. *flush*

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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05-03-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(03-03-2014 08:53 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 08:50 PM)sporehux Wrote:  You besmirch Lord Jesus, next you will be claiming Samson was not a great role model for children.

(great link by the way, I need a collection of NT quotes to combat the "but Jesus says love they neighbour" and that's all that matters response to any OT example of absurdity).

When jesus said love they neighbor it was to other christians. let me put it this way, you a in a town called christianville. Your neighbor also lives in christianville. However no body from muslimville is you neighbor because they live in a different town from christianville.

Re
"When jesus said love they neighbor it was to other christians."

Only problem is that Jesus (if he ever existed) was a Jew talking to other Jews; he never was a Christian. (apologies for being a little pedantic.)
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05-03-2014, 01:45 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 12:04 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 03:39 PM)meremortal Wrote:  And why do you need a deity to make that distinction for you? Is the threat of punishment from god the only thing keeping you from raping people?...


God and me can agree that rape is immoral for reasons quite apart from God's punishment.

God thinks rape is wrong and noboby threatens Him into thinking that.

There goes your false dilemma. *flush*

Why do you think "God thinks rape is wrong?"

"God" encourages rape, even of children...

“They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception...Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do noth- ing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof” (Gen. 19:4–8, NJB.)

Lot offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped rather than his male guests being violated. The girls would have been horrified, but that didn’t matter. It was the male visitors that mustn’t be shamed. Later in Genesis, Lot gets blind drunk two nights in a row and has sex with both his daughters (http://www.biblegateway. com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A30-38&version=KJV).

God arranges a marriage:

“If a man meets a young virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her, sleeps with her and is caught in the act, her ravisher must give the girl’s father fifty silver shekels; since he has exploited her, she must be his wife and, as long as he lives, he may not divorce her” (Deut. 22:28–29, NJB.) The raping of an un-betrothed virgin was a viola- tion of the rights of her father. He couldn’t sell her to anyone else, (damaged goods) so she must be sold for fifty shekels to the man who raped her!

Death to the rape victim:

“If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man encounters her in the town and has sexual intercourse with her, you will take them both to the gate of the town in question and stone them to death: the girl, for not having called for help in the town; the man, for having exploited his fellow-citizen’s wife. You must banish this evil from among you” (Deut. 22:23–24, NJB.) It’s clear that God didn’t care about the rape victim. She could, after all, now be carrying another man’s seed, so deserved death. The rapist was punished... because he violated another Jewish man’s property.

Keep the virgin girls for sex:

“...but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves” (Num. 31:18, NJB.)

God gave license to the rape of young virgin girls. It was the social norm in some cultures for little girls to be married off or just used for sex, and God encouraged it.

“God’s” words must have an effect on Christian attitudes to pedophilia. Some priests read the bible every day. I think some of them have failed to appreciate the tragedy of pedophilia because it was so commonplace in the Old Testament.
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05-03-2014, 08:25 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 12:12 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 08:50 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Good response Robby - love it when a biblical christian brings up how horrible rape is, and we can use biblical scripture to knock that argument right down.

Saying rape is horrible is not an argument - it's a statement of fact.

Why you would want to try and knock down someone for saying rape is horrible is beyond me.

Not gonna touch those bible verses, eh? I don't blame you. Sounds like you think there's nothing horrible about the law requiring a woman to be married to her rapist. That's horrible.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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05-03-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 12:12 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 08:50 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Good response Robby - love it when a biblical christian brings up how horrible rape is, and we can use biblical scripture to knock that argument right down.

Saying rape is horrible is not an argument - it's a statement of fact.

Why you would want to try and knock down someone for saying rape is horrible is beyond me.

You're missing the context of my post. You complained that it was bad to "think rapists and their victims are morally indistinguishable", and I countered with an instance in Deuteronomy where the Bible also makes no such distinction. The rapist and the victim are both killed to "put away evil from among you". All with the justification that if she didn't scream, she wanted it.

Pro tip: any person who makes the claim that rape is bad is not using the Bible to make that claim. Go and try to find where the Bible explicitly prohibits rape without adding weird qualifiers like if the woman was a virgin, married, or betrothed. Old Testament rape laws only care whether or not the vagina belonging to another man was being sullied; they did not care whether or not women were being violated.

Morality score:
Humanists: 1
Bible: 0
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05-03-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 09:50 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 12:12 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Saying rape is horrible is not an argument - it's a statement of fact.

Why you would want to try and knock down someone for saying rape is horrible is beyond me.

You're missing the context of my post. You complained that it was bad to "think rapists and their victims are morally indistinguishable", and I countered with an instance in Deuteronomy where the Bible also makes no such distinction. The rapist and the victim are both killed to "put away evil from among you". All with the justification that if she didn't scream, she wanted it.

Pro tip: any person who makes the claim that rape is bad is not using the Bible to make that claim. Go and try to find where the Bible explicitly prohibits rape without adding weird qualifiers like if the woman was a virgin, married, or betrothed. Old Testament rape laws only care whether or not the vagina belonging to another man was being sullied; they did not care whether or not women were being violated.

Morality score:
Humanists: 1
Bible: 0

Thanks for addressing that swing and miss from Lion. Lion - please show us all where it is clearly stated that "god says rape is wrong". Are you another one who just hears and repeats the "God is love" crap, but has never read your damn holy book?

And please stop jumping to absurd accusations and attacks when you don't understand the point being made.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-03-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 08:25 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 12:12 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Saying rape is horrible is not an argument - it's a statement of fact.

Why you would want to try and knock down someone for saying rape is horrible is beyond me.

Not gonna touch those bible verses, eh? I don't blame you.

Blush
Im so terrribly sorry I made you wait that long for a reply.
I can see why you leapt to the obvious conclusion that I had abandoned the thread after making you sit there pressing F5, F5, F5, F5, F5........ for a whole 12 hours.
It's just that because I'm timid and lacking confidence, it takes me a long time to work up the nerve to face up to a bunch of internet atheists and defend the bible.

None of those verses encourage rape and they all involve the imposition of a penalty on the male.

*Look what God did to the people of Sodom who wanted to commit rape. Notice that God PROTECTS the daughters from rape.

*Lot does not "have sex with" his daughters. (Ironic that you ignore the lack of consent.)
By your reasoning, I suppose if the victim of date rape cant remember what happened, then she was just having sex like Lot.

*The punishment in Deuteronomy 22 is about consensual adultery not rape. And if the woman was raped, she was NOT stoned to death - ONLY THE MAN WAS!
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05-03-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 09:50 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ...Old Testament rape laws only care whether or not the vagina belonging to another man was being sullied; they did not care whether or not women were being violated.

Rubbish!
Here's where the Old Testament condemns rape.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
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05-03-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 06:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 09:50 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ...Old Testament rape laws only care whether or not the vagina belonging to another man was being sullied; they did not care whether or not women were being violated.

Rubbish!
Here's where the Old Testament condemns rape.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Adultery [n]: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Carry on Drinking Beverage

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05-03-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
Rape is outside of marriage.
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