a page on new testement violence
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05-03-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:10 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Rape is outside of marriage.

"Out side of marriage" is irrelevant to the whole adultery thing you brought up.
Adultery requires one of the two(?) to be married, or at the very least implies engagement. People who aren't to be or are already married can rape and can be raped.

... Not to mention how many times people have brought up that old bible classic: "Rape a girl who isn't to be married off, pay her father 50 bucks in compensation and marry her, effectively legalising the rape and permitting its continuation."

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05-03-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 06:35 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  None of those verses encourage rape and they all involve the imposition of a penalty on the male.

Not explicitly, no, but the law in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 lays out a scenario where a guy who had 50 sheckles could be guaranteed a woman's hand in marriage if he rapes her and simply pays the fine. So, not encouragement per se, but the system is quite gameable.

creepy Bible Wrote:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.



(05-03-2014 06:35 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  *Look what God did to the people of Sodom who wanted to commit rape. Notice that God PROTECTS the daughters from rape.

What about that time God had his people kill all the men, boys, and non-virgin women, and keep the virgins for themselves? Sure, he's not telling them to "rape" the women, but it's not like the ancient Israelites/Judean people cared about women's sexual rights.

Hell, re-read the three rape laws I posted earlier from Deuteronomy 22:

creepy Bible Wrote:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Got that? Every single one of those shows that the men only cared that some other guy's woman's vagina was being violated. The third law is the one exception, which pertains to a woman who's not betrothed but who's still a virgin. So, her vagina doesn't belong to a man yet, but if she's raped and no longer a virgin, no man wants it. That's why the rapist is forced to marry her; because the real victim according to their culture is the father. He's stuck with an un-marriable daughter.



(05-03-2014 06:35 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  *The punishment in Deuteronomy 22 is about consensual adultery not rape. And if the woman was raped, she was NOT stoned to death - ONLY THE MAN WAS!

Which of the rules in Deuteronomy 22 are you talking about? The law in verses 23-24 has both of them stoned:

creepy Bible Wrote:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Both of them get stoned. Why? Because she wanted it if she didn't scream.



That being said, I'll repeat: Find me the spot in the Bible that explicitly forbids rape without adding qualifiers such as whether or not the woman is married, betrothed, or a virgin. You won't find it, because they weren't concerned with women's sexual rights; they were concerned about vaginas owned by men or soon to be owned by men being sullied.
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05-03-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
Sex outside marriage is sinful.
Rape is outside marriage.
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05-03-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:28 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 07:10 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Rape is outside of marriage.

"Out side of marriage" is irrelevant to the whole adultery thing you brought up.
Adultery requires one of the two(?) to be married, or at the very least implies engagement. People who aren't to be or are already married can rape and can be raped.

... Not to mention how many times people have brought up that old bible classic: "Rape a girl who isn't to be married off, pay her father 50 bucks in compensation and marry her, effectively legalising the rape and permitting its continuation."

Yeah. According to the Bible, husbands can force themselves on their wives all they want. There is no protection for the women against this.

Again, the fact that we don't allow husbands to rape wives is something that we as humans came up with. That wasn't handed down by the Most Merciful God; he doesn't care about that shit.

Morality Score:
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Bible: 0
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05-03-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 06:35 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  None of those verses encourage rape and they all involve the imposition of a penalty on the male.

[Image: jeff_the_killer_sees_you___by_nooneelset...4ybfkq.jpg]

This is Jeff and Jeff likes your daughter. You live in a christian town that follows old testement laws. Jeff is a alchoolic and a killer, and one day he just rapes you daughter. Jeff pays you and he has to marry her, HOWEVER this works in jeff's favor as he now gets to marry your daughter and there is nothing she can do about it because he is forced to marry her, and in a way she is forced to marry him.Evil_monster

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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05-03-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:33 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Sex outside marriage is sinful.
Rape is outside marriage.

Plenty of women sue their husbands for rape.
Is that sin?

Robby is asking for a statement stating "rape is bad", not "if [insert situation] happens, then rape is bad." nor "Rape is bad if [insert cause]". Effectively showing that secular mortality must be used to distinguish what's good and bad. Drinking Beverage

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05-03-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:34 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ...According to the Bible, husbands can force themselves on their wives all they want. There is no protection for the women against this.

FALSE.
A husband must love and honor his wife and give himself up for her benefit.
A husband and wife (joined by God) must and do love each other as one flesh.
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05-03-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:41 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 07:34 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ...According to the Bible, husbands can force themselves on their wives all they want. There is no protection for the women against this.

FALSE.
A husband must love and honor his wife and give himself up for her benefit.
A husband and wife (joined by God) must and do love each other as one flesh.

Ya but knowing christians in that time when they said love the probably meant like you would love a mule.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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05-03-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:43 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 07:41 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  FALSE.
A husband must love and honor his wife and give himself up for her benefit.
A husband and wife (joined by God) must and do love each other as one flesh.

Ya but knowing christians in that time when they said love the probably meant like you would love a mule.

Let the record show that you were the one who brought up humans loving animals/humans/animals....
I was talking about human marriage/husbands/wives.
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05-03-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: a page on new testement violence
(05-03-2014 07:47 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 07:43 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Ya but knowing christians in that time when they said love the probably meant like you would love a mule.

Let the record show that you were the one who brought up humans loving animals/humans/animals....
I was talking about human marriage/husbands/wives.

He's talking about owning property, not bestiality. Facepalm

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