absolute truths....ugh..
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20-04-2015, 08:41 PM
absolute truths....ugh..
What is your opinion on absolutes and absolute truth arguments?

Been having this long ass conversation with someone online. It started out with me pointing out to a theist that non belief is the neutral stance to any claim and this Pro absolute truths ass wad with what seems to be a jr high or high school level philosophy education just wont give up. Its going on day 3 now with me responding back to him like 12 times already and they won't shut it! I have explained several times why absolutes don't exist or even can be coherently proven.

Its basically gotten to the point where he keeps repeating the lines "I am glade I have an education and you don't" bull shit to me. Getting quite irritating but I will never give up until I get the last word in Censored


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20-04-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
Sounds like you might have a presup on your hands.
A pretty dumb one at that.
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20-04-2015, 09:09 PM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
(20-04-2015 08:47 PM)pablo Wrote:  Sounds like you might have a presup on your hands.
A pretty dumb one at that.

Maybe.

I will try posting the convo maybe sometime tomorrow or whenever if you are interested. At least the good parts of it.

Here is a tid bit of wtf he talks about.


Quote:Tautologous truths have nothing to do with the world around us. It is raining out or it is not raining out, is true if it is raining out or not. It is logically true and is true independent of any facts.

Quote:"Not believing" in something is not anything.
Where X is a thing, not X = not anything.
Where X is anything that exists, not X = not anything that exists.

Not X is not anything, no matter what X is.

Next time you try to say something to someone who actually has an education, be prepared to be corrected.


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20-04-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
What he says there makes sense to me. I've never followed any arguments on absolute truths, though, so I'm sure there is convincing lines of reason as to why his statements are false.
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20-04-2015, 09:17 PM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
(20-04-2015 08:41 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  What is your opinion on absolutes and absolute truth arguments?

Been having this long ass conversation with someone online. It started out with me pointing out to a theist that non belief is the neutral stance to any claim and this Pro absolute truths ass wad with what seems to be a jr high or high school level philosophy education just wont give up. Its going on day 3 now with me responding back to him like 12 times already and they won't shut it! I have explained several times why absolutes don't exist or even can be coherently proven.

Its basically gotten to the point where he keeps repeating the lines "I am glade I have an education and you don't" bull shit to me. Getting quite irritating but I will never give up until I get the last word in Censored

Knowledge is contextual and therefore so is truth. There are some basic truths that are universally true such as axiomatic truths.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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20-04-2015, 09:53 PM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
(20-04-2015 09:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 08:41 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  What is your opinion on absolutes and absolute truth arguments?

Been having this long ass conversation with someone online. It started out with me pointing out to a theist that non belief is the neutral stance to any claim and this Pro absolute truths ass wad with what seems to be a jr high or high school level philosophy education just wont give up. Its going on day 3 now with me responding back to him like 12 times already and they won't shut it! I have explained several times why absolutes don't exist or even can be coherently proven.

Its basically gotten to the point where he keeps repeating the lines "I am glade I have an education and you don't" bull shit to me. Getting quite irritating but I will never give up until I get the last word in Censored

Knowledge is contextual and therefore so is truth. There are some basic truths that are universally true such as axiomatic truths.

But we can never truly know that. To make such a statement would be to make the statement that an unknown unknown cannot exist. There is or could always be some unknown that could alter what we think is the truth. Therefor, absolutes don't exist and are merely that which we label the objective of what our subjective minds are able to perceive.

We label color as being objective but it does not exist in the way we think it does. Only in our minds it exists as we think. Thought is subjective to the person thinking. Sure, we can compare our collective subjective thoughts and that is how we are able to make decisions on what is objective and true. But we cannot trust that, at least, not absolutely. We don't really have much of a choice to trust it really, but to claim it as absolute is nonsense. Especially since the very objective absolute axiom laws of physics that "some" theists or other people for various reasons like to use in debate for whatever purpose completely break down certain points. Which means the laws the tie our universe together are probably not quite as absolute as we would think they are.

This is basically the entire point I am getting across aside from our original conversation completely deviating from him telling me that atheism is a positive claim and then he somehow got into absolutes from there.


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21-04-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
Quote:What is your opinion on absolutes and absolute truth arguments?
Quite simple. Saying that something is absolute truth is redundant. Truth doesen't get more true if one call it absolute truth. Also it is arrogant statement which could mean that individual uttering it no longers seeks answers or wisdom. Why would he if he already know the absolute truth?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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21-04-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
As mentioned in a few other threads, as someone who is a by the book agnostic I believe it is rationally impossible to prove something to be true. There are things we can assume are true because everything that has been done to prove them false has failed to do so, but the possibility always exists, however remote it might be.

'Murican Canadian
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21-04-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
(20-04-2015 09:53 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 09:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Knowledge is contextual and therefore so is truth. There are some basic truths that are universally true such as axiomatic truths.

But we can never truly know that. To make such a statement would be to make the statement that an unknown unknown cannot exist. There is or could always be some unknown that could alter what we think is the truth. Therefor, absolutes don't exist and are merely that which we label the objective of what our subjective minds are able to perceive.

We label color as being objective but it does not exist in the way we think it does. Only in our minds it exists as we think. Thought is subjective to the person thinking. Sure, we can compare our collective subjective thoughts and that is how we are able to make decisions on what is objective and true. But we cannot trust that, at least, not absolutely. We don't really have much of a choice to trust it really, but to claim it as absolute is nonsense. Especially since the very objective absolute axiom laws of physics that "some" theists or other people for various reasons like to use in debate for whatever purpose completely break down certain points. Which means the laws the tie our universe together are probably not quite as absolute as we would think they are.

This is basically the entire point I am getting across aside from our original conversation completely deviating from him telling me that atheism is a positive claim and then he somehow got into absolutes from there.

You know what an unknown unknown is? It's nothing. It's arbitrary and the arbitrary can never be knowledge. We can know with certainty that some things are absolutely true. Whatever exists, exists. That's an absolute. Consciousness is consciousness of some thing as opposed to nothing. That's an absolute truth. Everything is something and it is what it is and only what it is. The law of identity is an absolute truth. The object has primacy in the subject/object relationship. This is an absolute. It is absolutely true that I don't play basketball for the Chicago Bulls. It is absolutely true that I'm a man and not a woman. Every fact of reality is an absolute.

If we can never be certain of anything then we can never be certain that we can never be certain. All attacks on consciousness are self refuting. That's because the concept consciousness is one of those axiomatic concepts. Axiomatic concepts must be true in order to attempt to refute them.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-04-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: absolute truths....ugh..
(21-04-2015 08:03 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote:What is your opinion on absolutes and absolute truth arguments?
Quite simple. Saying that something is absolute truth is redundant. Truth doesen't get more true if one call it absolute truth. Also it is arrogant statement which could mean that individual uttering it no longers seeks answers or wisdom. Why would he if he already know the absolute truth?

That is a very good way of putting it. And just because something is true in a certain context does not mean it is not absolutely true withing that context.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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