alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
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06-01-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 08:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 08:05 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  It's not. 94 with some calculations, or so I heard; but duh! Recent modifications give a value of 13.82, making "observable universe" at least 27.64. Tongue

OK, the edge of the observable universe was 13.7 Gly +/- change in the seat cushions when the light that we are now observing left. That edge has now expanded to ~47 Gly distant (~94 Gly is the diameter which is less useful for this discussion) but we can't see that yet. So the oldest light that we see is 13.7 Ga old. To be accurate, the oldest objects that we can observe are just a bit over 13 Gly because beyond that the redshift gets foolish and early atomic hydrogen "fog" absorbs most of the light.

But lets not confuse matters. You just can't fit a 13 Gly universe into a 20,000 ly bottle.

You implied diameter when you meant radius: "If the observable universe is 13.7 Gly across..."

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06-01-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 01:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 09:41 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Alpha,

Do you believe there are stars we can see that are 50,000 light years away?
Yes. Unless you're going somewhere new with this, this is about the dumbest argument going.

How are we seeing that light from those stars? Did your god push the light 44K light years closer to us for our benefit? Ockham's Razor pal. Carl Sagan was dumb? Interesting.

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06-01-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 01:24 AM)alpha male Wrote:  The primary assumption of unchanging decay rates is now in doubt.

Is it? By who?
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06-01-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 05:13 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 01:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Yes. Unless you're going somewhere new with this, this is about the dumbest argument going.

Lol, you're an idiot, aren't you?

Actually, it technically is a dumb argument. If you're starting with the assumption of a powerful creator-god who made the whole universe, it's painfully easy to simply state that he created the stars 6,000 years ago (or last Thursday) and he created a bunch of photons most of the way from the star to the earth.

It's an absurd and unfounded assertion, but it technically falls right in line with the idea of powerful creator-gods. Sure, the reasons for the god doing this are equally absurd, but the existence of stars further way than 6,000 light years doesn't actually prove anything.
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06-01-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 10:08 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 05:13 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Lol, you're an idiot, aren't you?

Actually, it technically is a dumb argument. If you're starting with the assumption of a powerful creator-god who made the whole universe, it's painfully easy to simply state that he created the stars 6,000 years ago (or last Thursday) and he created a bunch of photons most of the way from the star to the earth.

It's an absurd and unfounded assertion, but it technically falls right in line with the idea of powerful creator-gods. Sure, the reasons for the god doing this are equally absurd, but the existence of stars further way than 6,000 light years doesn't actually prove anything.

The strength of the argument is that is another piece of evidence in support of a naturalistic explanation of the universe.

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06-01-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 07:44 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Being disingenuous isn't cute and is annoying to respond to.

Light travels at 1 ly/yr, hence the name. If the observable universe is 13.7 Gly across then it must be 13.7 Ga old. This is in direct contradiction to your young Earth. Kindly reconcile.
A god capable of creating a universe could create stars with light streams already in place.

Quote:Care to list a few? I know them all and how to check them.

News to me and bad news to us all. Would you care to cite a source?
I guess you don't know them all. In short, decay rates seem to be influenced by the distance from the sun; solar flares; and on a 33-day cycle, which may indicate the rotational period of the sun's core. Neutrinos are speculated as the cause but we don't really know at this point.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/augus...82310.html
http://phys.org/news202456660.html

Other assumptions vary to some extent with the method. here's a list of assumptions regarding K-Ar dating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93A...ssumptions

Quote:Your young Earth seems to have a few hundred million years of it accumulated. Another tiny contradiction that you need to reconcile.
Young earth models incorporate plate tectonics, generally during the flood.
Quote:Care to try the other five on my list? The massive impacts are a cool one.
Maybe later. I'd like to keep it manageable and my time and interest are limited.
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06-01-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 10:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  The strength of the argument is that is another piece of evidence in support of a naturalistic explanation of the universe.

Well, yes, the idea of a god who's going out of his way to make the universe look older than it is, is truly absurd. You would hope that people would see this and realize the folly of assuming weird, yet nonfalsifiable beliefs to be true.
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06-01-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 11:19 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 07:44 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Being disingenuous isn't cute and is annoying to respond to.

Light travels at 1 ly/yr, hence the name. If the observable universe is 13.7 Gly across then it must be 13.7 Ga old. This is in direct contradiction to your young Earth. Kindly reconcile.
A god capable of creating a universe could create stars with light streams already in place.

Quote:Care to list a few? I know them all and how to check them.

News to me and bad news to us all. Would you care to cite a source?
I guess you don't know them all. In short, decay rates seem to be influenced by the distance from the sun; solar flares; and on a 33-day cycle, which may indicate the rotational period of the sun's core. Neutrinos are speculated as the cause but we don't really know at this point.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/augus...82310.html
http://phys.org/news202456660.html

Other assumptions vary to some extent with the method. here's a list of assumptions regarding K-Ar dating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93A...ssumptions

Quote:Your young Earth seems to have a few hundred million years of it accumulated. Another tiny contradiction that you need to reconcile.
Young earth models incorporate plate tectonics, generally during the flood.
Quote:Care to try the other five on my list? The massive impacts are a cool one.
Maybe later. I'd like to keep it manageable and my time and interest are limited.

Of course, once you assume magic, science goes right out the window.

The only problem with that is science works. Your magical thinking is just silly.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-01-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 11:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Well, yes, the idea of a god who's going out of his way to make the universe look older than it is, is truly absurd. You would hope that people would see this and realize the folly of assuming weird, yet nonfalsifiable beliefs to be true.
Personally I'd put abiogenesis into the weird and nonfalsifiable category, yet people assumed it happened and you don't seem to fault them for it.
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06-01-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: alpha male's beliefs concerning the age of the Earth
(06-01-2014 11:30 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-01-2014 11:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Well, yes, the idea of a god who's going out of his way to make the universe look older than it is, is truly absurd. You would hope that people would see this and realize the folly of assuming weird, yet nonfalsifiable beliefs to be true.
Personally I'd put abiogenesis into the weird and nonfalsifiable category, yet people assumed it happened and you don't seem to fault them for it.

But you are quite wrong - it is potentially falsifiable. It has not been falsified as yet.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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