altruism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-06-2017, 09:13 AM
altruism
So i made a comment on a post i made about The Good Book about how i don't trust altruism. I don't want to divert that thread but i think its important to address an objection made. This is an area where i seriously have to criticize atheist. So many atheist i have talked to don't read the origins of various ideas and ask "where did this idea come from and why did this person believe it.". Altruism is a Christian idea,and its a bad Christian idea. To define altruism simply its the belief that the only moral actions are those in which the actor gets no benefit. Not only is this unrealistic it is contrary to human psychology. Even if the only reason someone does something is for a sense of moral superiority.

I only help people for selfish reasons. If its someone i know and care about i help them because i want them to be happy. If it is someone i don't know i help them because one day i might need help. I do not trust altruism, or people who claim to act from selfless reasons.

The origin of altruism was an attempt to provide a secular ethic in the context of comte's belief in the fallen nature of man. So many times we atheist either don't question how theist beliefs shape even atheist scientists ideas.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BlkFnx's post
25-06-2017, 09:20 AM
RE: altruism
Quote:Altruism is a Christian idea,and its a bad Christian idea.

CITATION NEEDED!

Quote:To define altruism simply its the belief that the only moral actions are in which the actor gets no benefit.

NO ONE's claiming this.

Quote:Not only is this unrealistic it is contrary to human psychology. Even if the only reason someone does something is for a sense of moral superiority.

The repeated use of the expression "moral superiority" shows ONLY your selfishness and lack of caring about others.

Quote:I only help people for selfish reasons.

Luckily, you ain't the world. Thank our non-existent god.

Quote:If its someone i know and care about i help them because i want them to be happy. If it is someone i don't know i help them because one day i might need help. I do not trust altruism, or people who claim to act from selfless reasons.

So, what is the selfish reason behind this bastard risking his own life in order to help gangraped women? What a selfish prick, eh?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Vera's post
25-06-2017, 09:20 AM
RE: altruism
Basic instinct "survival of the species".

Most common altruism is parents towards their kids.

No religion needed.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Dom's post
25-06-2017, 09:25 AM
RE: altruism
(25-06-2017 09:13 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  So i made a comment on a post i made about The Good Book about how i don't trust altruism. I don't want to divert that thread but i think its important to address an objection made. This is an area where i seriously have to criticize atheist. So many atheist i have talked to don't read the origins of various ideas and ask "where did this idea come from and why did this person believe it.". Altruism is a Christian idea,and its a bad Christian idea. To define altruism simply its the belief that the only moral actions are those in which the actor gets no benefit. Not only is this unrealistic it is contrary to human psychology. Even if the only reason someone does something is for a sense of moral superiority.

I only help people for selfish reasons. If its someone i know and care about i help them because i want them to be happy. If it is someone i don't know i help them because one day i might need help. I do not trust altruism, or people who claim to act from selfless reasons.

The origin of altruism was an attempt to provide a secular ethic in the context of comte's belief in the fallen nature of man. So many times we atheist either don't question how theist beliefs shape even atheist scientists ideas.

Okay, right off the bat you're incredibly wrong about altruism being a Christian concept. Christianity may have warped what you think altruism is, but it did not originate the concept. Altruism literally predates humanity, let alone civilization, let alone Christianity.

Respectfully, you probably should have done some research on the topic before coming here and posting this as some sort of "problem" for atheists.

Altruism is not simply what you have defined, here. You are attacking what we call a "straw man". It's easy to tear down the straw man because it's not the real argument.

Altruism is indeed selfish. Because we are a social species, we (unless we are sociopaths, about 1% of the population, who have not developed this neurological system) gain pleasure from helping others. People give to charity because it feels good. People help the drowning stranger-- and sometimes even put their lives at risk for animals-- because it feels good to do the right thing, as we see it. And why do we see it that way? Because we're wired to do so as a social species. Without empathy for the plight of our fellow human beings, human society would never have risen above utter barbarity.

Even in the animal kingdom, we see the rudiments of altruistic behavior, among social species, from dolphins to monkeys.

Far from being "contrary" to human psychology, altruism is inherent to human psychology. If you would like some suggestions for further reading on the subject, I will provide it... but I suspect your Google search window works as well as mine.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 15 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
25-06-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: altruism
(25-06-2017 09:13 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  So i made a comment on a post i made about The Good Book about how i don't trust altruism. I don't want to divert that thread but i think its important to address an objection made. This is an area where i seriously have to criticize atheist. So many atheist i have talked to don't read the origins of various ideas and ask "where did this idea come from and why did this person believe it.". Altruism is a Christian idea,and its a bad Christian idea. To define altruism simply its the belief that the only moral actions are those in which the actor gets no benefit. Not only is this unrealistic it is contrary to human psychology. Even if the only reason someone does something is for a sense of moral superiority.

I only help people for selfish reasons. If its someone i know and care about i help them because i want them to be happy. If it is someone i don't know i help them because one day i might need help. I do not trust altruism, or people who claim to act from selfless reasons.

The origin of altruism was an attempt to provide a secular ethic in the context of comte's belief in the fallen nature of man. So many times we atheist either don't question how theist beliefs shape even atheist scientists ideas.
I've always considered this pov to mean spirited.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gawdzilla's post
25-06-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: altruism
(25-06-2017 09:20 AM)Vera Wrote:  So, what is the selfish reason behind this bastard risking his own life in order to help gangraped women? What a selfish prick, eh?

Vera, that article contains an amazing, though I suspect unintentionally hilarious, statement:

"Denis Mukwege was the third of nine children born to a Pentecostal minister and his wife. He studied medicine because he wanted to heal the sick people for whom his father prayed..."

Laugh out load

[Image: nothing-fails-like-prayer.jpeg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
25-06-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: altruism
You know, looking at the image I just posted, above, a thought occurs to me...

I think those two atheists are misguided.

That's clearly a statue of a high-five. Thumbsup

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
25-06-2017, 09:38 AM
RE: altruism
(25-06-2017 09:32 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Vera, that article contains an amazing, though I suspect unintentionally hilarious, statement:

"Denis Mukwege was the third of nine children born to a Pentecostal minister and his wife. He studied medicine because he wanted to heal the sick people for whom his father prayed..."

Yeah, I noticed that too. Mind went same place yours did Yes

It also contains this heart-breaking one: "He returned to Bukavu on January 14, 2013, where the population reserved him a warm welcome over the 20 miles from Kavumu Airport to the city, especially from his patients, who had raised funds to pay for his return ticket by selling pineapples and onions" Sadcryface

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vera's post
25-06-2017, 09:42 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 09:46 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: altruism
(25-06-2017 09:13 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Altruism is a Christian idea,and its a bad Christian idea.

Some proof of this would be nice.

Quote:To define altruism simply its the belief that the only moral actions are those in which the actor gets no benefit.

I disagree. Here's how Cambridge dictionary defines altruism: willingness to do things that bring advantages to others, even if it results in disadvantage for yourself.

Here is definition from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: In evolutionary biology, an organism is said to behave altruistically when its behaviour benefits other organisms, at a cost to itself

Quote:Not only is this unrealistic it is contrary to human psychology. Even if the only reason someone does something is for a sense of moral superiority.

Only unrealistic thing here is your made up definition.

Quote:I only help people for selfish reasons.

So? Your experience does not make valid argument.

Edit: Though it could be argued that if people get satisfaction from helping others then there is no action that can be called altruistic, but that I suppose depend on how one defines altruism.

Quote:If its someone i know and care about i help them because i want them to be happy. If it is someone i don't know i help them because one day i might need help. I do not trust altruism, or people who claim to act from selfless reasons.

Fact that you don't trust people claiming to act from selfless reasons means nothing, just like theist inability to conceive that their god wasn't needed for Universe to began.

Quote:The origin of altruism was an attempt to provide a secular ethic in the context of comte's belief in the fallen nature of man.

Citation needed.

Quote:So many times we atheist either don't question how theist beliefs shape even atheist scientists ideas.

So many times some people came here and talk what atheists think. You're no one special in this regard.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
25-06-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: altruism
Another relevant thought about this subject occurs to me. We have left off part of the argument, here. (We = me, anyway.)

Humans are a social species and thus wired for altruism. But that is only true with our "in-group", meaning behavior toward those we consider part of "our tribe", because for most of our evolutionary history, we competed with other groups/tribes for resources... and arguably, still do, albeit on a much larger scale.

Your family is, of course, part of your tribe. So might be your pets, or your neighbors, or your friends, or your social/church groups, etc. Depending on the social programming you have received, growing up, you may see every "My Fellow Americans" person in your country as part of that in-group. As I mentioned before, our love of dogs sometimes causes humans to risk their lives to save a dog who's drowning, even at the risk of their own life. It's kind of amazing, when you think about it!

On the contrary, though, a person may have received programming that says most of your fellow Americans are your in-group, but not Those Bad People Over There™, like "those fags" or "NEEERRRRDS!!!" or "those darkies" or "those damned heathens". And many, many other options. We have empathy, but we also have xenophobia which allows us to override that natural empathy. The more distant you are from your immediate circle-of-empathy, your family, the less likely you are to project your empathy onto that person, and thus your willingness to act altruistically toward that person. Sadly, a person who takes advantage of this xenophobic instinct can manipulate and gain power over large groups by painting himself as a protector of the in-group against the out-group. There's great incentive, unfortunately, to make us suspect and eventually turn on one another-- either within the country, or between nations.

That's why the war of ideas is such an important one. That's why we have to fight back against Christians and others who would try to divide humanity into groups, to erode our empathy for their own gain. That's why I can't stay silent when someone starts attacking homosexuals as "the dangerous other", or lies about what atheists really are, or any number of other attempts to define themselves as inside the circle of empathy by casting others out of it.

You might enjoy reading The Expanding Circle by Peter Singer. It's an older book, and I'm sure it has been expanded on in the three and a half decades since it was published, but it's the only one I specifically know to recommend on the subject. The link is to the whole book, in PDF format.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 10 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: