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04-06-2014, 03:44 PM
and on to another subject
"Based on observations and then it just sort of clicks into place, and this is what we observe, and then it clicks into place, I sort of had this epiphany, where it all clicked into place"

15 minutes of that so far, does he have a point he will eventually get to, or is that the whole video?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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04-06-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 03:21 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 08:53 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I don't believe I've ever been turned down a job because I am a woman. Perhaps its due to the type of jobs I work?

Most probably. I work in a male dominated field. I've just come back from an 'inspirational' talk to get more women into IT and it left me more depressed than ever. This was by the COO of a consulting company. She told us that men generally hire men and women generally hire women so if there is an imbalance then it gets worse over time. KingsChosen started a thread about male teachers at school and how few of them there are and that just goes to show that gender inequality is an issue that affects the whole of society.

And we'll all have to face ageism. I've seen it happen myself. I once interviewed someone who was ideal for the post and we desperately needed his skills. We put in a rave review but the (female) manager didn't even consider him because he was much older. Why was he even invited in? I wonder how people who automatically dismiss complaints of sexism or racism will feel when the same thing happens to them when they get too old.

I've worked in high tech for 40 years and have seen very little, if any, sex discrimination in engineering. Yes, women are under-represented but that was no fault of the companies or managers I've worked with.

Non-technical managers (especially sales) are a different story.

And age-ism is rampant - it's a far larger problem that sexism in high tech, especially software development.

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04-06-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 04:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've worked in high tech for 40 years and have seen very little, if any, sex discrimination in engineering. Yes, women are under-represented but that was no fault of the companies or managers I've worked with.

Non-technical managers (especially sales) are a different story.

And age-ism is rampant - it's a far larger problem that sexism in high tech, especially software development.

How do you know that ageism is rampant yet sexism isn't even though women are under-represented?

How do you know that it wasn't the fault of the companies or managers?

Is it because they say or think that they are making the best choices?

That doesn't work if their decision making process involves comparing the candidate to other employees who they know work well. This is why imbalances tend to grow over time. Not just in terms of gender but it also can happen with race.

Do you know that you are all being paid equally?

A couple of hours ago I came back from a presentation. One woman told us how she got a job and was paid less. Their excuse was she didn't have a straight Computer Science degree. A year later a man was hired with less experience. He had exactly the same degree from her from the same university. They paid him several thousand more. She found out about this, queried it and the company reluctantly had to increase her wage. But her new contract stipulated that she could no longer reveal her wage to people.


And before you say something along the lines of choosing the candidate most likely to get on with others, companies benefit from diversity in the workplace.
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04-06-2014, 07:26 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 07:29 PM by Chas.)
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 05:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 04:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've worked in high tech for 40 years and have seen very little, if any, sex discrimination in engineering. Yes, women are under-represented but that was no fault of the companies or managers I've worked with.

Non-technical managers (especially sales) are a different story.

And age-ism is rampant - it's a far larger problem that sexism in high tech, especially software development.

How do you know that ageism is rampant yet sexism isn't even though women are under-represented?

How do you know that it wasn't the fault of the companies or managers?

Is it because they say or think that they are making the best choices?

That doesn't work if their decision making process involves comparing the candidate to other employees who they know work well. This is why imbalances tend to grow over time. Not just in terms of gender but it also can happen with race.

Do you know that you are all being paid equally?

A couple of hours ago I came back from a presentation. One woman told us how she got a job and was paid less. Their excuse was she didn't have a straight Computer Science degree. A year later a man was hired with less experience. He had exactly the same degree from her from the same university. They paid him several thousand more. She found out about this, queried it and the company reluctantly had to increase her wage. But her new contract stipulated that she could no longer reveal her wage to people.


And before you say something along the lines of choosing the candidate most likely to get on with others, companies benefit from diversity in the workplace.

Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

It would be nice if you took that presuppositional chip off your shoulder.

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04-06-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 05:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  How do you know that ageism is rampant yet sexism isn't even though women are under-represented?

How do you know that it wasn't the fault of the companies or managers?

Is it because they say or think that they are making the best choices?

That doesn't work if their decision making process involves comparing the candidate to other employees who they know work well. This is why imbalances tend to grow over time. Not just in terms of gender but it also can happen with race.

Do you know that you are all being paid equally?

A couple of hours ago I came back from a presentation. One woman told us how she got a job and was paid less. Their excuse was she didn't have a straight Computer Science degree. A year later a man was hired with less experience. He had exactly the same degree from her from the same university. They paid him several thousand more. She found out about this, queried it and the company reluctantly had to increase her wage. But her new contract stipulated that she could no longer reveal her wage to people.


And before you say something along the lines of choosing the candidate most likely to get on with others, companies benefit from diversity in the workplace.

Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
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04-06-2014, 07:36 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
Wink

I have been with several companies and there all the others where people I work with or hired have worked, or people I've worked with now work, and so on.

There are very few high tech companies that discriminate, in my experience. They can't afford to. The talent pool is younger, hipper, and more connected than in most other industries. And often the founders are as well.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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04-06-2014, 07:44 PM
RE: and on to another subject
Quote:Yes but did this happen consistently to you?

I'm 22, I've had limited time for this to happen to me multiple times.
But it has happened to me. Yet I'm a guy.

Quote:As for the stupid bitch thing, I don't give all feminists an easy time either. There are some who are pissed off that they can't treat men with the same contempt that some men treat them. But this doesn't mean to say that the whole problem of equal rights can be dismissed.

See, you're not reading what I'm saying.
I'm pro-equal rights. I'm anti-women only rights.
You're not getting the distinction between the two.

Quote:That's not an adequate or convincing response and just shows how you are automatically dismissing what I am trying to say without even thinking it through. I was explaining why sexism means that I end up less able to ask for a higher wage even if I am not unemployed.

And I'm telling you, this is not gender specific.



And you're still yet to ignore the issues I raised about men being discriminated against. You being slightly less favored for a job over a male counter part is hardly an issue worth raising. I have raised far greater issues that you have continued to ignore. Also, I suspect you're not a favorite to get a job because you're a bitch, not because you're a women.
I will list those issues again, feel free to respond to these and please explain to me how YOUR issues that you've raised, that being slightly less favored for a job and expected to take your husbands name during marriage (which is a traditional marriage thing), is more of a priority than my issues that you're yet to adress.
- 40% of domestic violence is against males, yet males get the "suck it up pussy" response.
- Women are favored in custody battles
- KC's issue regarding primary school teachers.

These are actual issue. You not being able to get a job because you're a bitch is not a social issue.

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04-06-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
Wink

Except I have data and you don't.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-06-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: and on to another subject
Gender war is the final war of individual differences.The most primitive thought of

Quote:You are different with me ,so I hate you!

Actually kids dislike another gender kids since in primary school already ,except few of them...

Until secondary sexual characteristics appears,they started to "like"people in another gender,but this kind of liking mostly base on the physical appearance...

On internet forums ,the physical appearance isn't such important and clear ,therefore the gender war in primary school appears again...

The design of "god"sucks!
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04-06-2014, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 08:50 PM by cjlr.)
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
Wink

Except I have data and you don't.

I can't be lacking data, as I've not made a statistical claim in this thread.

So there's that.

(04-06-2014 07:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
Wink
I have been with several companies and there all the others where people I work with or hired have worked, or people I've worked with now work, and so on.

There are very few high tech companies that discriminate, in my experience. They can't afford to. The talent pool is younger, hipper, and more connected than in most other industries. And often the founders are as well.

Well, sure. I am certainly able to recognise that discrimination is not present at the hiring level - with the caveat that it is virtually never made explicit!

All else being equal, one would expect roughly equal gender ratios in an given domain. If not - what else is not equal? And why? That is the worthwhile follow-up...

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