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04-06-2014, 11:47 PM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 08:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  All else being equal, one would expect roughly equal gender ratios in an given domain. If not - what else is not equal? And why? That is the worthwhile follow-up...

First year maths and physics at uni we had equal split. Second year 70% male. Third year 90% male. The girls were as good or better than the guys. But the *profs*... some of them... Angry Fucking douchebags. Eroded people's confidence, made them think "I'm OK now but what about a few years later doing research"... would give that kind of advice to women, and for men it was "look, you're not doing to well, but if you pull your socks up should be no problem to do a masters" etc etc.

Net result was less women the further along you got Sad I think that even if they *knew* the guy was a mysogynist douche they would still be affected by what he said, still think "OK well I think I'll stop at a BSc" or "OK I also got a major in <insert humanities subject> so I'll go do that". Not that I don't think humanities are important, but *they got all our wimmen* Weeping

So I think one problem, even if no discrimination *hiring*, might be that there simply are less qualified women grads 'cos of the culture at universities. (SA universities, so YMMV).

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-06-2014, 01:49 AM (This post was last modified: 05-06-2014 02:01 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Yes but did this happen consistently to you?

I'm 22, I've had limited time for this to happen to me multiple times.
But it has happened to me. Yet I'm a guy.

It probably happened to you because you are screaming queen who is also a bitch (Oh look both of us can do this). As opposed to me who is only a bitch online to people like you who deserve to be bitched. And you ever notice that I normally try to avoid ad hominems?

In real life situations I mentally tear myself a new arsehole everytime I perform a social faux pas.

So you're a young'un at 22 with hardly any career history. So you have no track record of watching how your employment success changes over time. Or moving to another country and finding that a completely different pattern ensues. But yeah that doesn't stop you from being absolutely correct in everything even though you have very little life experience (that was sarcasm btw).

When you hit 50 and you find that no matter how skilled you are you can't get a job when beforehand you had no problem, I hope someone's there to tell you that you are just imagining it.


(04-06-2014 07:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  See, you're not reading what I'm saying.
I'm pro-equal rights. I'm anti-women only rights.
You're not getting the distinction between the two.

That's because you never made the distinction.

Who is suggesting "women only rights"? Again you've just made an assumption based on your personal prejudices and go off on one ranting about stuff, like with that poll a newbie posted asking for people's gender. I mean WTF? Are you incapable of figuring out that not everyone thinks the way you think they do?


(04-06-2014 07:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And you're still yet to ignore the issues I raised about men being discriminated against. You being slightly less favored for a job over a male counter part is hardly an issue worth raising.

Sorry yes I should totally accept that me not being able to find work or have a career that exploits the skills I have is not worth mentioning.

Yes, admittedly it is more of a problem living in Germany but that's because they have not made as much progress. The same dismissive argument you use were made in other countries when they as backwards as Germany in this regard, they were overcome and those countries have benefited as a result.


(04-06-2014 07:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I have raised far greater issues that you have continued to ignore.

What do you want me to say about them?

Yes 40% domestic violence against males is a problem. Yes women are favoured in custody battles and yes there is a shortage of male teachers.

I never said they weren't a problem and on KC's thread I said the lack of male teachers was a problem. You're just trying to distract from the main argument me by wrongfully claiming that I am ignoring them. As I said to KC, if you feel strongly about these issues then maybe you should get off your arse and do something about it. Or maybe you aren't because they don't really affect you, so you don't actually care and you're only using them to dismiss other people's points.

The whole comparison is stupid anyway. Maybe suffragettes shouldn't have bothered trying to get the vote all the while women were suffering female genital mutilation in the world? Maybe we shouldn't have worried about gay rights until we had achieved full gender equality?

It's meaningless to say we shouldn't worry about something in society because there are worse things going on in the world. No we should stamp out on in-equality wherever it happens and to whom. As I said to KC, we can't change the world, we need to pick our battles, and those should be the ones the ones that affect us.


(04-06-2014 07:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Also, I suspect you're not a favorite to get a job because you're a bitch, not because you're a women.

No I'm not a bitch in real life, only to people like you on-line that need to be bitched. Pretty much like how you obsessively bitch Mr Woof.
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05-06-2014, 02:00 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

So presumably you make the conscious effort not to let subconscious prejudices affect your judgement, make the effort to ensure that everyone receives equal pay even when there is an opportunity to save on employment costs, and actively make sure that the staff in the rest of your organisation ensure that no one is given preferential treatment solely based on physical features they cannot change. Congratulations!

But how do you know that everyone else is as diligent as you?

(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  It would be nice if you took that presuppositional chip off your shoulder.

Except that presuppositional means to presuppose the conclusion and is a fallacious form or argument that tries to avoid the need for evidence. Whereas the case for gender inequality has stacks of evidence reported in the literature.

Use of the word presuppositional suggests that maybe you are not as impartial as you would like to think you are.
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05-06-2014, 02:03 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, sure. Anecdata and statistics are non-overlapping magisteria, as it were. "Discrimination is widespread" ≠ "everyone discriminates".

Someone's gotta be the leading edge here.
Wink

Except I have data and you don't.

Oooh excellent! Can we start comparing data on gender equality now?

Please lets!
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05-06-2014, 02:10 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 11:47 PM)morondog Wrote:  First year maths and physics at uni we had equal split. Second year 70% male. Third year 90% male. The girls were as good or better than the guys. But the *profs*... some of them... Angry Fucking douchebags. Eroded people's confidence, made them think "I'm OK now but what about a few years later doing research"... would give that kind of advice to women, and for men it was "look, you're not doing to well, but if you pull your socks up should be no problem to do a masters" etc etc.

Net result was less women the further along you got Sad I think that even if they *knew* the guy was a mysogynist douche they would still be affected by what he said, still think "OK well I think I'll stop at a BSc" or "OK I also got a major in <insert humanities subject> so I'll go do that". Not that I don't think humanities are important, but *they got all our wimmen* Weeping

So I think one problem, even if no discrimination *hiring*, might be that there simply are less qualified women grads 'cos of the culture at universities. (SA universities, so YMMV).

Yes, I agree that women often find that university culture is severely male supportive/oriented. Math is historically considered and supported as a male subject.

I remember several male teachers that completely shot down women:

In one class, the class was severely over crowded: the tenured professor of philosophy said, "if you bleed, get out."

In a math class, the professor laughed loud and long because I was talking about math theory. He said I was cute.

These are only two small examples of my college experience with misogyny.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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05-06-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 06:16 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Great Dee, thats a wonderful non emotional response. Rolleyes

My apologies for name calling War Horse--Sadcryface I sent a PM also.

Great conversation going on here.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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05-06-2014, 02:55 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(04-06-2014 08:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except I have data and you don't.

I can't be lacking data, as I've not made a statistical claim in this thread.

So there's that.

You disparaged my experience as 'Anecdata' without having any experience and hence no data. You have no basis on which to judge it.

Quote:
(04-06-2014 07:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have been with several companies and there all the others where people I work with or hired have worked, or people I've worked with now work, and so on.

There are very few high tech companies that discriminate, in my experience. They can't afford to. The talent pool is younger, hipper, and more connected than in most other industries. And often the founders are as well.

Well, sure. I am certainly able to recognise that discrimination is not present at the hiring level - with the caveat that it is virtually never made explicit!

Sorry, but what the actual fuck does that mean?

Quote:All else being equal, one would expect roughly equal gender ratios in an given domain. If not - what else is not equal? And why? That is the worthwhile follow-up...

Fewer women applicants. I'm not talking about discrimination in education or other broader causes, just in high tech companies.

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05-06-2014, 03:00 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(05-06-2014 02:00 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because I've been the hiring manager, director, or VP. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

So presumably you make the conscious effort not to let subconscious prejudices affect your judgement, make the effort to ensure that everyone receives equal pay even when there is an opportunity to save on employment costs, and actively make sure that the staff in the rest of your organisation ensure that no one is given preferential treatment solely based on physical features they cannot change. Congratulations!

But how do you know that everyone else is as diligent as you?

Well, since I never said everyone is, what's your actual question?

Quote:
(04-06-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  It would be nice if you took that presuppositional chip off your shoulder.

Except that presuppositional means to presuppose the conclusion and is a fallacious form or argument that tries to avoid the need for evidence. Whereas the case for gender inequality has stacks of evidence reported in the literature.

Use of the word presuppositional suggests that maybe you are not as impartial as you would like to think you are.

Yes, you are presupposing that high tech is no different than any other area.

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05-06-2014, 03:01 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(05-06-2014 02:03 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except I have data and you don't.

Oooh excellent! Can we start comparing data on gender equality now?

Please lets!

Show me your data that are specific to high tech companies, principally the engineering groups.

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05-06-2014, 03:03 AM
RE: and on to another subject
(05-06-2014 03:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 02:00 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Except that presuppositional means to presuppose the conclusion and is a fallacious form or argument that tries to avoid the need for evidence. Whereas the case for gender inequality has stacks of evidence reported in the literature.

Use of the word presuppositional suggests that maybe you are not as impartial as you would like to think you are.

Yes, you are presupposing that high tech is no different than any other area.

No I'm not. Show me where I said that.
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