argument with my father, mental health to religion
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24-05-2014, 12:26 PM
argument with my father, mental health to religion
Please read and respond with sensitivity. Smile a little back story: my sister went to see a psych yesterday for depression issue. I was inquiring how it went. 


Dad.
I don't want her on meds yet. He ordered a hormone/thyroid test. Rule that out first. I don't want her to blindly take meds. I think America is over medicated. Next month therapy and in a month back to the psych. Go from there. If she needs them, fine. But if not, I think life skills are important to learn. Coping skills. Ect 

Me. 
Not if it's a chemical imbalance. That argument is fallacious. Mental treatment come in three categories: psycho, social, bio. Therapy sets the psycho, meds set the bio, and group sessions set the social. All pieces rectify 33% off the issue, but if one third is not rectified then the other 66% is vain. I can sit in my house all even and scream poor me while taking Zoloft but if I'm not using coping mechanisms or exercising, or socializing then the meds do nothing. The meds do not solve the issue, it makes the issue easier to solve. But be prepared to be open for treatment, pride does not belong in the doctors office. It's like saying to a diabetic to just eat better, exercise, and forget treatment. Mental illness is no different, you need all three. And you get to work with the doctor about this. At Kaiser they are very good, the psychiatrist and therapist work together on these issues and they work with you as the parent and with her as the patient.  They're just there to make suggestions but it's important to understand where they are coming from. And asside from placebo effect, the medicines do make it easier to set coping mechanism in place. Go to nami.org 
It's got family support stuff. 

Dad. 

We don't know what it is. Let's not just throw drugs out and experiment. That's stupid. Let's rule things out first. Why treat for a heart attack when it's just  heart burn. And I disagree- that I believe many problems can be fixed with the correct coping skills. I'm sorry, but I think it's stupid that 10 percent if the  US pop. Is on anti depressants. I believe the problem is social, not ALL chemical. Now don't twist my words. I believe some people are in need of chemical meds. But not 19 percent. And I believe our diet has a lot to do with it. And it is fallacious to just prescribe mental drugs, if the prob is with the thyroid. 

Me.
Go do your homework and speak with some psychiatrists. Will ya? And we will see how your argument stands amongst your peers. Your perception of medication for mental disorders and the administration of those medicines is incredibly skewed. You probably have no idea how they are procured, administered, and how the body uses them. Have you read up on NAMI yet? Cause it's been almost 2 years now and unlike me, you have someone who will live in your house for another year and you will need the resources available to you by those with their specialization in those fields. For me, I was basically out of the house and I was able to make my own educated decisions on these sort of things. It's not like I've been drugged up all these past two years either. If i don't want to take medication, I don't see a psychiatrist. If I do, then I consult with them and see their judgement and then I go home and do my homework. It often takes many times to finally find meds that work. 

Dad. 
Ok almighty one. We spoke to one. He himself said their was no scientific accuracy with mental illness. It's all experiment in dosage. 

Me. 
Exactly. That's how all Medicine works. That's why it's called "practicing medicine." Why do avoid that question, have you not read up on NAMI? Sounds like you're too good for it. 
Read up on the research papers on medicine too.And you know what? I've dealt with this stuff for almost 2 years. Hospital, psychiatrist, therapist, group therapy classes. I've just recently been able to buy some fun stuff and do some nice things with my wife because nearly 100/month were going through just for doctors. So your lack of acceptance or respect for what I plead you to consider is nothing but insulting. This is why I keep you out of my medical stuff because you blind yourself with whatever it is you are afraid of. A little understanding can go a long ways. I just hope [sisters name]doesn't want to take meds either because if she does, it's going to cause a rift that she probably doesn't need in her life right now. Pure understanding. Not for you, but for her. I don't know what she is dealing with, she won't tell me, but I'm sure it's a pretty shitty fucking time for her. And dont give her the "oh everyone goes through this." Because that is insulting and I hated it when you told me that. If she says something is wrong with her, listen. That's your job. Otherwise, she will be swinging in her closet by a belt. Take...it...seriously. I saw this coming. She's always so damn introverted around the family and that needs to change. Some her, some us. I know I haven't done my part to emotionally fill her. And I think that's what she needs. She needs to be spoiled the fuck out with emotional needs. Not monitary, but a lot of emotional care. 

Dad.
Watch your tongue. 

Me. 
I told you all that and that's all you can say? 

Dad. 
Haha. 

Me. 
That's terrible. When morality of word choice trumps the importance of the message...now that's religion for you. 

Help me! He's going to fucking kill me! 

Watch your language. 

Help me! He's going to---! 

Oh he's dead, his fault. Shouldve watched his language. 

Night dad. 

Love you. 

Dad. 
I'm sorry. You and Gillian aren't the same. I'm going to talk to the doctor and see. I'm not going to rush in and say "give me drugs and make me feel better". I'm going to go through a process first. Good bye-once again. Your arrogance...

Me. 
So is that what I did? I rushed in and said give me drugs and make me feel better? I used to feel bad that I refuse to let you into my life down here and the processes I deal with on a routine basis. But now I don't feel bad, you don't deserve it. Your so prideful. I hope you sleep well and stay in your dream world where sky daddies and priesthood are here to save you and you won't ever have to do any real research on the reality of mental illness because all you need is the holy ghost and some magic words. I hope Gillian doesn't fall into 2 years of guilt over a stupid religion. She feels bad...so it must be her unworthiness somewhere. Maybe she said a bad word when tripping? She better repent. Maybe in a year she will see herself out. In the mean time, I'll be the good brother and tell her to pray and see the bishop. But I should really tell her is wait a year and get out of that abusive cult. Don't forget to pay your 10% for salvation. Logic. Seeya. 

Dad. 
No! I'm not saying that's what you did. But if it's a thyroid problem, or a self think that can be corrected, if opt for that over meds. Isn't it wonderful to have faith in God ? I'm grateful that's all I need. With God I can do all things. 

Me. 
With God, you can do all things you would have done without god anyways. You cannot move mountains, you cannot raise the dead, and you cannot see angels. That scripture should be changed to say "I can do all things through God who strengthens me [with circular logic]". Faith is a poor excuse for blatantly not thinking. Atleast other religions make a little more sense. If it wasn't for Scientology, the Mormon faith would not have anyone to make fun of.

Dad.
I can move mountains, I can see angels. And I can raise the dead.Now I'll let you have the last word-like always. 

Me.
I'll gladly take it: prove it. 

Dad. 
It's an adulterous generation that seeks a sign

Me. 

Earthquake happens, hurricane happens, I die due to cancer. Mormons and christians: it's a sign! The end of times are near! 


End of arguement. 


After note on my father: for this conversation...it was weird and not really like him or most Mormons. It's not in the culture to get all biblical, but perhaps I am wrong and just now noticed because I've been out for 5 months? Also, just a little thought too, since I've left the church, didn't go on a mission, and dealing with mental illness, it has been a religious revival for my father. He's buying more religoisly oriented books in his later age to convince himself. I truely thinks he is an atheist/agnostic in denial. He hates to admit he was wrong and I dont think be will ever leave because of it. He is so trapped by religious guilt and mormon culture. If I didn't leave first, I think he would have a better chance of leaving. It's sad really, he used to care a lot about science, that's his minor and he can actually teach life and earth science but he is a Spanish teacher which is his major and he has a master's in humanities. He's studied many religions and he is a really smart guy but I think he is getting really extreme in religion because that's how I turned out. 

Anyways, what do you think about this convo?

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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24-05-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
Due to the sensitive issue being raised here I moved this to the PI&S forum.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-05-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
(24-05-2014 12:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Due to the sensitive issue being raised here I moved this to the PI&S forum.

No prob, thanks Smile

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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24-05-2014, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 01:58 PM by Anjele.)
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
While I can understand the frustration you feel it's not completely unreasonable to run some tests before committing to a medication. Hormone and thyroid imbalances can cause some real issues and that's probably good to rule out.

That said, I do use meds for depression. But it did take some trial and error to find the right thing and along the way I had thyroid issues that are now resolved that added to depression but weren't the cause.

At least they are doing something for your sister. Some super-religious won't even entertain the thought.

In the meantime keep pushing for answers and for the search to continue and support your sister...whatever is causing her issues may have a simple fix, but until it's figured out she still suffers.

Hope all goes well.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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24-05-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
Eish Sad It's a shitty situation all round.

I suggest... try to mend a few fences with your Dad. You do come across quite combative and while that says good things for you not taking shit, he's not gonna listen to the reasonable stuff you've got to say, and which he *needs* to listen to regarding your ideas for how he can help your sister with her emotional difficulties.

I think he also had some reasonable stuff which he said, which was that he'd like to get more expert opinion. Ultimately these decisions need to be made with the best benefit of your sister in mind, and ideally she should be the one making them, depending on her age, but I did notice that he's interestingly more up for expert opinion (talking about going to the doc and checking the thyroid) than for the Jesus stuff - you were actually the one who brought religion into the argument first.

I think your old man's not so bad, just based on what I read in your OP - of course I don't know him or you so you may have other info.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-05-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
He is willing to talk to experts, he is seeking treatment, he is willing to go the med route once it's been thoroughly checked out. I am not seeing a problem here.

The two of you enjoy pushing each other's buttons, which doesn't do your sister any bit of good. You are just as sassy and stuck in your ways as he is in his. Apples don't fall far from the tree.


Dr Phil moment coming on- you might be right, but how much fun do you think it is to live someone always picking at details, rather than seeing the big picture ? Treatment plan may not be going exactly the way you think it should, but she is being seen by professionals and getting help.

Maturity is realizing the part you play in family harmony and how you can make things better or worse with your actions and attitudes.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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24-05-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
Thanks guys I agree with you guys. I did bring it up first. I just hate it. he is very anti mental health medicine. I went through the same shit. he will get my sister treatment all the way up to the point when the doctor says something that he doesn't agree with.

he doesn't even care to read up on NAMI.

I remember the night I was rushed to the ER because I was going to kill myself and he thought I was being a baby, until the doctor came in and was like "yeah, we are transferring him to the psych hospital"

it wasn't until then he admitted that something was wrong.

I'm probably just holding a grudge.

he doesn't like it when I tell him I stopped using drugs or I started again. but when I left the church he suggested I go back to the doctors as if it will cure my atheism!


maybe I'm just a baby. but I never feel understood and never did.

it's worse with my sister, my dad has always been condescending to her and sometimes would call her a bitch.

I just imagine he is acting the same way with her that he acted with me in the beginning. and that's a scary idea. my dad is a nice guy but he's so damn moody and prideful when listening to his son.

I don't know. maybe I'm just moody.

thanks for the critiques guys, I'll take it to heart. Smile

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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24-05-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: argument with my father, mental health to religion
I don't blame you one bit for telling your dad how you feel, with regards to your sister. You both want what's best for her, but have different ideas, on how to reach the end goal. Not seeing eye-to-eye on certain subjects is normal in most families. Sometimes, you just need to take a break, for a day or two, then try approaching it from a different angle the next time.

Which leads me to the religious conflict between you and your dad. At the risk of sounding like Dr. Phil, choose your battles wisely. Sometimes it's better to have peace, than be right. My immediate family knows that I am no longer a christian. I don't care if they like it, all I ask is that they respect it.

Do you know what cognitive dissonance is?

Cognitive dissonance - Mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The concept was introduced by the psychologist Leon Festinger (1919–89) in the late 1950s. He and later researchers showed that, when confronted with challenging new information, most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information or by convincing themselves that no conflict really exists. Cognitive dissonance is nonetheless considered an explanation for attitude change.

Another Dr Phil statement, that I really like is, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results". I think about that statement every time I see or hear of people arguing over religion. Insanity. That's an awful lot of wasted time and energy, that could be put to better use.

Although some tried, no one could get me to change my religious beliefs until I was ready. Alright, sorry for the lecture! Rolleyes

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. ~Mark Twain
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