atheist study of gospel of John?
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03-12-2016, 05:17 AM
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
(03-12-2016 02:48 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Banjo, I did my BA in classical political philosophy. 40 years ago. It would be hard for me to make a full list. lol

I studied under a Greek philosopher called Plato. lol

http://www.humanistperspectives.org/issue189/mamo.html

I can make a list. I studied them as a boy and while touring as an adult.

I read them all.

You have a particular point?

I'd be very curious. Something I can't find on the net.

Cheers.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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03-12-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
Hi Banjo.

I'm not sure what the point is of this discussion. I have an undergrad degree in political science. I studied Plato and Aristotle, Polybius's theory of mixed government, Roman constitutional law. I also studied Aquinas, Locke, Hobbes, St. Augustine, Rousseau, as well as more modern European and American political writers. The usual stuff.

Getting back to Epuicurus, here is the gist of the influence of Hellenistic thinking on Judaism from the Encyclopedia Britannic and a precis of a book by Yaakov Malkin:

The historical background of the New Testament and its times must be viewed in conjunction with the Jewish matrix from which it evolved and the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world into which it expanded during a period of Jewish religious propaganda. It is difficult, however, to separate the phenomena of the Jewish and Hellenistic backgrounds, because the Judaism out of which the church arose was a part of a very Hellenized world. The conquests of Alexander the Great culminated in 331 BC, and the subtle but strong influence of Greek culture, language, and customs that was spread by his conquests united his empire. Jews in both Palestine and the Diaspora (Dispersion) were, however, affected by Hellenism, as in ideas of cosmic dualism and rich religious imagery derived in part from Eastern influence as a result of the Greek conquests. Greek words were transliterated into Hebrew and Aramaic even in connection with religious ideas and institutions as, for example, synagogue (religious assembly), Sanhedrin (religious court), and paraclete (advocate, intercessor). It could be argued that the very preoccupation with ancient texts and tradition and the interpretation thereof is a Hellenistic phenomenon. Thus, what may appear as the most indigenous element in the activity of the Jewish scribes, sages, and rabbis (teachers)—i.e., textual scholarship—has its parallels in Hellenistic culture and is part of the general culture of the times. The thought worlds merged, confronted each other, and communicated with each other. ...E.B


EPICURUS & APIKORSIM

The Influence of The Greek Epicurus and Jewish Apikorsim on Judaism

By Yaakov Malkin
Judaism is the only national culture which has adopted the name of this Greek philosopher, using it as a term designating Jews who believe in freedom to choose their way of life, without obligation to obey religious precepts. Today, most Jews live as "Apikorsim". The heresy implicit in the denial of the existence of a personal God includes a denial of belief in life after death.
Apikorsim believe that the purpose of life and of morality is found in striving for happiness – the betterment of human life whose principles are based on the laws of universal justice as phrased by Hillel: Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Epicurus' non-religious philosophy spread during the Hellenistic period to all Mediterranean cultures, including Judaism. Its effect can be found in the Bible in the books of Kohelet/Ecclesiastes and the Book of Job. ...Malkin


This thread is about John. Why I posted this here is that John is, as far as I know, the only book in any of Judaism, Christianity or Islam which specifically defines what "god" is. The others leave it to one's imagination. In Judaism he is at the top of Mount Sinai and in Islam, Mohammed flies to Allah on a horse after he dies, so Allah is physically located in the sky and, like the Jewish god, tells people to do things, or else.
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03-12-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
Seriously, why don't the OT and the Koran start at least one of their "books" with something like "God is a big man who lives in the sky and has magic powers, and a bad temper"? Then we would all know where we stood. I think if God and Allah do exist, not making this clear, despite their purportedly vast powers qualifies them as total jerks.
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03-12-2016, 08:44 AM
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
(03-12-2016 07:55 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hi Banjo.

I'm not sure what the point is of this discussion. I have an undergrad degree in political science. I studied Plato and Aristotle, Polybius's theory of mixed government, Roman constitutional law. I also studied Aquinas, Locke, Hobbes, St. Augustine, Rousseau, as well as more modern European and American political writers. The usual stuff.

Getting back to Epuicurus, here is the gist of the influence of Hellenistic thinking on Judaism from the Encyclopedia Britannic and a precis of a book by Yaakov Malkin:

The historical background of the New Testament and its times must be viewed in conjunction with the Jewish matrix from which it evolved and the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world into which it expanded during a period of Jewish religious propaganda. It is difficult, however, to separate the phenomena of the Jewish and Hellenistic backgrounds, because the Judaism out of which the church arose was a part of a very Hellenized world. The conquests of Alexander the Great culminated in 331 BC, and the subtle but strong influence of Greek culture, language, and customs that was spread by his conquests united his empire. Jews in both Palestine and the Diaspora (Dispersion) were, however, affected by Hellenism, as in ideas of cosmic dualism and rich religious imagery derived in part from Eastern influence as a result of the Greek conquests. Greek words were transliterated into Hebrew and Aramaic even in connection with religious ideas and institutions as, for example, synagogue (religious assembly), Sanhedrin (religious court), and paraclete (advocate, intercessor). It could be argued that the very preoccupation with ancient texts and tradition and the interpretation thereof is a Hellenistic phenomenon. Thus, what may appear as the most indigenous element in the activity of the Jewish scribes, sages, and rabbis (teachers)—i.e., textual scholarship—has its parallels in Hellenistic culture and is part of the general culture of the times. The thought worlds merged, confronted each other, and communicated with each other. ...E.B


EPICURUS & APIKORSIM

The Influence of The Greek Epicurus and Jewish Apikorsim on Judaism

By Yaakov Malkin
Judaism is the only national culture which has adopted the name of this Greek philosopher, using it as a term designating Jews who believe in freedom to choose their way of life, without obligation to obey religious precepts. Today, most Jews live as "Apikorsim". The heresy implicit in the denial of the existence of a personal God includes a denial of belief in life after death.
Apikorsim believe that the purpose of life and of morality is found in striving for happiness – the betterment of human life whose principles are based on the laws of universal justice as phrased by Hillel: Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Epicurus' non-religious philosophy spread during the Hellenistic period to all Mediterranean cultures, including Judaism. Its effect can be found in the Bible in the books of Kohelet/Ecclesiastes and the Book of Job. ...Malkin


This thread is about John. Why I posted this here is that John is, as far as I know, the only book in any of Judaism, Christianity or Islam which specifically defines what "god" is. The others leave it to one's imagination. In Judaism he is at the top of Mount Sinai and in Islam, Mohammed flies to Allah on a horse after he dies, so Allah is physically located in the sky and, like the Jewish god, tells people to do things, or else.

One teensy weensy leetle problem with this bullshit.
Job wasn't written in the Hellenistic period.
You idiot. Malkin was no scholar of ancient literature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaakov_Malkin
Your assertion about where God is, is totally WRONG.
Stop making up shit and posting it as true.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-12-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
(03-12-2016 08:44 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-12-2016 07:55 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hi Banjo.

I'm not sure what the point is of this discussion. I have an undergrad degree in political science. I studied Plato and Aristotle, Polybius's theory of mixed government, Roman constitutional law. I also studied Aquinas, Locke, Hobbes, St. Augustine, Rousseau, as well as more modern European and American political writers. The usual stuff.

Getting back to Epuicurus, here is the gist of the influence of Hellenistic thinking on Judaism from the Encyclopedia Britannic and a precis of a book by Yaakov Malkin:

The historical background of the New Testament and its times must be viewed in conjunction with the Jewish matrix from which it evolved and the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world into which it expanded during a period of Jewish religious propaganda. It is difficult, however, to separate the phenomena of the Jewish and Hellenistic backgrounds, because the Judaism out of which the church arose was a part of a very Hellenized world. The conquests of Alexander the Great culminated in 331 BC, and the subtle but strong influence of Greek culture, language, and customs that was spread by his conquests united his empire. Jews in both Palestine and the Diaspora (Dispersion) were, however, affected by Hellenism, as in ideas of cosmic dualism and rich religious imagery derived in part from Eastern influence as a result of the Greek conquests. Greek words were transliterated into Hebrew and Aramaic even in connection with religious ideas and institutions as, for example, synagogue (religious assembly), Sanhedrin (religious court), and paraclete (advocate, intercessor). It could be argued that the very preoccupation with ancient texts and tradition and the interpretation thereof is a Hellenistic phenomenon. Thus, what may appear as the most indigenous element in the activity of the Jewish scribes, sages, and rabbis (teachers)—i.e., textual scholarship—has its parallels in Hellenistic culture and is part of the general culture of the times. The thought worlds merged, confronted each other, and communicated with each other. ...E.B


EPICURUS & APIKORSIM

The Influence of The Greek Epicurus and Jewish Apikorsim on Judaism

By Yaakov Malkin
Judaism is the only national culture which has adopted the name of this Greek philosopher, using it as a term designating Jews who believe in freedom to choose their way of life, without obligation to obey religious precepts. Today, most Jews live as "Apikorsim". The heresy implicit in the denial of the existence of a personal God includes a denial of belief in life after death.
Apikorsim believe that the purpose of life and of morality is found in striving for happiness – the betterment of human life whose principles are based on the laws of universal justice as phrased by Hillel: Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Epicurus' non-religious philosophy spread during the Hellenistic period to all Mediterranean cultures, including Judaism. Its effect can be found in the Bible in the books of Kohelet/Ecclesiastes and the Book of Job. ...Malkin


This thread is about John. Why I posted this here is that John is, as far as I know, the only book in any of Judaism, Christianity or Islam which specifically defines what "god" is. The others leave it to one's imagination. In Judaism he is at the top of Mount Sinai and in Islam, Mohammed flies to Allah on a horse after he dies, so Allah is physically located in the sky and, like the Jewish god, tells people to do things, or else.

One teensy weensy leetle problem with this bullshit.
Job wasn't written in the Hellenistic period.
You idiot. Malkin was no scholar of ancient literature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaakov_Malkin
Your assertion about where God is, is totally WRONG.
Stop making up shit and posting it as true.

Do you think what you posted above is something which gives you any credibility as an academic?

I made the point that the moral philosophy reflected in the NT is influenced by Epicureanism, and there is support for that. It's not something which I have studied in detail. As I have endeavoured to point out, Christians would universally reject this so if, as I was, someone is raised in that tradition, there would be no reason to accept this proposition and Christian theologians have rejected and criticised Epicureanism.

You then say that "do unto others, etc." is something which "we all know" comes out of Judaism. "We know where it comes from". So Jews aren't Epicureans...

Then we have Malkin who says that most Jews are Epicureans, that this philosophy had a huge influence on Judaism, that "do unto others, etc.," is a statement of Epicurean moral philosophy...

Which of the Ten Commandments, which God imposed on the Jews from his perch on top of Mount Sinai is "do unto others, etc."? I'm sorry but I have never been told that OT Judaism is founded exclusively on this moral precept, as opposed to the Ten Commandments, a variety of rituals, and a belief in the Jewish people being, the "Children of God", they being descended from Adam. It's not something that leaps out of the OT or modern Judaism, that this one moral precept, "do unto others etc." is the foundation stone of Judaism. But here is Malkin saying most Jews are Apikorsum today

So, 2000 years ago this philosophy finds a voice in the NT and is, in fact, the foundation of all the moral teachings of Jesus, whose "god" is the "logos" and who rejects Jewish rituals etc. At the time, under the Romans, this philosophy was picked up in Christianity and adopted as the highest statement in Judaism, the OT having ended with the collapse of whatever civilization the OT is referring to, and its subjugation to Rome.

I suppose there was some underground movement I a missing and this Epicurean influence which Malkin describes is just a "sect" of the greater Judaic narrative which is continuing, uninfluenced by the Greco-Roman ideology of the era, and we just can't figure it out.

Seems to me that you really don't have a clue, to be frank. You think you are more qualified and more enlightened than Malkin who was teaching "the Bible as literature" in Israel in the 1940's. But you know better. lol

You are so arrogant and so insulting I can't figure out how you think anything you say should be taken seriously. I have never heard a university professor or graduate student speak so insultingly and using profanity the way you do. God help any faculty which hires you, if you ever graduate. Is this the way you would treat people who are genuinely interested in learning? Abuse them and call them idiots?
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04-12-2016, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2016 02:23 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
(04-12-2016 11:44 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I made the point that the moral philosophy reflected in the NT is influenced by Epicureanism, and there is support for that.

No there isn't. And you FAILED to provide any.
The reason Christians reject that crap, is beacuse you make it up, and you HAVE no scholarly support from CREDIBLE people IN THE FIELD.

And we all get by now, instead of actually posting the evidence for your assertions, you start whining and bitching about swearing and all sorts of irrelevant rubbish.
I thought you left.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-12-2016, 07:44 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016 12:59 AM by DLJ.)
RE: atheist study of gospel of John?
(02-12-2016 11:04 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ...
In fact, in Christian parlance "we" talk about the Christian God and the Old Testament God, as though they are different. It's an odd thing, when you think about it and I think a lot of people, particularly those who haven't been brought up in Christianity don't realise how important this is to Christians, that they are worshipping a different, new God, a god of love, not a hateful cosmic thunderer.

Marcion. Marcion was an early Christian who noted the difference between the OT and NT gods and stated they were in fact different gods altogether. The NT God was the true God, the OT god and imposter. Marcion got this idea from an earlier teacher. Marcion was also important as he established an early Biblical canon, and that forced orthodox Christians to follow suit. An interesting character in early Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope

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Cheerful Charlie
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