attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
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26-04-2011, 01:52 PM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
(26-04-2011 12:07 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If it is obvious that the use of condoms has a strong chance of lowering the spread of aids in Africa, yet missionaries travel there to warn African citizens that the use of condoms will damage their immortal soul, then there is no reason not to say these missionaries are ensuring the spread of aids in Africa, by preventing known answers from being widely used.

Actually, it is worse then that; the Church has told people in Africa that using condoms will INCREASE their chance of contracting AIDs. How is that not immoral? Given the church's influence in Africa, how is it not criminal? And yet, we are told we have to "respect" the church's beliefs because they are based on religion.

If someone professes to be a historian and argues that there were never slaves in the US or Europe, they would be laughed out of the profession. No one would take them seriously and no one would be complaining about their "right to believe" this being infringed. If someone claimed to be a mathematician and insisted that 2 + 2 = 5, on one would give them equal time in class room to teach their theory and no one would claim that not giving them equal billing is some kind of discrimination. You have a right to an opinion and a belief, no matter how absurd, but what you don't have is a right to have that belief respected and defended and given equal time in our society. There is no other belief outside of religion that is given this "hands-off", walk-on-egg-shells treatment in society. Harris' point is not that we should outlaw this type of thinking; Harris' point is that we should be allowed to treat it with the same requirements of proof that we judge every other statement and claim and the same disdain and contempt we would give any one else making crazy statements.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-04-2011, 02:53 PM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
(26-04-2011 09:48 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Neither of those responses were honest...

I can honestly say, you got a set on you attempting to backhandedly call me a liar.

I didn't even read the rest of your excuse as to why you think that's OK.

If you're under the impression someone not respecting someone elses belief system affords them the entitlement automatically not to be respected, you have a very serious deficit in respect for respect. Undecided

It's not something handed out like candy, when even that is dangerous to the diabetic. It's something that's earned.

*Is it righteous or personally fulfilling to respect terrorism and belief systems that embrace such? If someone respects radical Islam because every belief deserves respect, what's that say to and about peaceful Muslims who don't respect terrorists insulting their faith as they fear for their lives, because those same violent radical Islamists think peaceful Muslims are worthy of death too? *(added via edit)

Respecting everyone's belief system, isn't realistic. To venerate the inane, the stupid, the obscenely violent isn't showing respect for respect or peaceful Muslims. It's pandering to disdain.

It's like those who claim they love everyone.

How sweet.Rolleyes I wonder how much love one would hold for the knife wielding thug as they're gutting them, after having stolen their wallet or raping them, because they're just that kind of sexual sadist that likes to watch the light in a victims eyes go out at the tip of their blade.

Love that?

Love Love?

Then don't love that! And don't presume to claim it's possible to love everyone. Love is a privilege, not a concession.

Same goes for respect.

Someone can respect someone's right to believe absolutely stupid insipid crap as their belief system. However, if someone holds a modicum of self-respect they don't respect stupid insipid crap as a belief system. It's their right as a free thinking rational individual. Because affording respect for something deemed unworthy of being appreciated on it's merits is then an exercise in paying stupid insipid crap homage, honor, tribute, reverence and every other applicable synonym that goes along with it.

Self-respect entitles the individual to exercise discretion as to just exactly what they'll hold in esteem as a system of beliefs and what they'll not.

Not respecting someone's belief system isn't the same thing as not respecting the individual who holds to the system. Though at times those are not mutually exclusive.
Do I respect a terrorist in Islam and their belief system?
Sure! Of course.
Oh, that would be you that says that. Right? Confused

I'm being honest again in saying as relates to my right of free honest choice, hell no I don't!

No reasonable person, in my world, respects terrorist faith systems that think murder is part of the hope the whole world will conform to their beliefs once everyone in it is either exterminated or converted out of fear of being so.

Do I respect the kind of zealot phobic "ism" laden Christianity that the Fred Phelps clown posse parade around the nation, while hating America in the process because their God does too? Um, no. Venture to say that's absolutely not gonna happen. Ever! Do I respect them as people? No. It frankly ticks me off that they're fertile, so their hatefest can breed to life new sacks of hate that enjoy literally spitting on Veterans,gays, grieving parents, and anyone else who they happen not to respect, as part of what their personal religious creed says is just and proper in the eyes of their twisted lord.

If that's intolerance in your world, hallelujah!

Honestly! [Image: 7.gif]

*edit for missing text. No idea how it happened. I posted once before and it didn't turn out so I deleted the whole thing and posted again. Still missed something. Then again it's been one of those Monday's...oh, wait!*Confused
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26-04-2011, 05:02 PM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
Ok Ghost, I dont know what kind of honest answer you wanted to hear from us, but I think you are missing the point IMO.

When I say I dont respect certain beliefs, I'm not saying that theists must be erradicated. I respect people because they are human beings, however, I do not respect someone's belief if that belief leads to an immoral action, also, I dont respect people who spread and embrace hatred and bigotry towards people who dont think like them, thats something different, disrespecting people and disrespecting immoral actions are not the same IMO.

Yes, people have their right to believe whatever they want to believe, honestly, but their rights ends where other people's right's begin.

For example, a person has the right to believe anything, its their choice, but forcing, hating, segregating, murdering people who does not agree, is not something I should respect because it is an attack to other people's rights.

I respect their right to believe, but I dont respect their "right" to segregate, hate, insult, etc., other people just because their beliefs dont match theirs.

As I said before, should I respect;

- The pope and the people who agrees with the condom issue.
- People who are willing to segregate and/or erradicate gay people.
- People who agree that things like the inquisition must return in order to restore and impose the faith.
- People who murder doctors working in abortion clinics.
- People who are willing to blow hospitals, schools, public centers, etc., just to prove that their religion is the only truth.
- Parents who force their little daughters to the torture of female circumsicion in african countries just because their beliefs say so.
- People who are willing to let their children and loved ones die just because their belief system is against blood transfusions.

Granted, people can believe whatever they want, but the problem is when people's actions are based on such beliefs, and those action become harmful to other human beings, thats when they lose my respect.

Honestly, I dont feel pure disdain for theists. I respect some theists mainly because they are human beings and when their morality is not based on the hateful principles of their respective religions.

Regarding christianity, I dont respect the ideas of christianity when they spawn hatred and bigotry. Also, I think that zealots are not the main proplem within religions, because they just follow some moral code within their "holy" texts, If a religion has immoral codes then that religion itself becomes immoral.

I can say I respect Jainism and its followers over christianity any day, because Jainism is a religion with strong moral codes such as respecting every human life, no matter if they think diferent from them, even if their religion is critiziced, their core beliefs dont allow hatred, bigotry and murder, killing is something that is horrible to them, and even their fundamentalists are harmless because they don't kill or do harm to other under any circumstances.

Maybe there are some things about Jainism I dont agree with, but regarding their moral code and ideas, I think their ideas regarding the value of life and peace deserve more respect that the hateful and bigoted ideas of other religions like christianism, judaism and islam.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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27-04-2011, 10:56 AM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
(21-04-2011 01:11 PM)latvianxave8 Wrote:  I often come across this at the end of a debate with a theist.

What do you say after someone says this?

In other words, the theist is asserting his right to believe as he damn well pleases. But rights are meaningful only to the extent that they impose duties on other people. Having the right to vote is an empty phrase unless other people are willing to count your vote.

So what duties are imposed upon us by the theist's right to believe nonsense? Well, the duties are pretty minimal. We may not suppress his views, or harass him or physically intimidate him. That's about it.

We may ignore the theist without in any way abrogating his rights. Ignoring someone is universally seen as a sign of gross disrespect. Or we may tell him that his views are benighted and retrograde. I don't care how suave you are--that's going to sound disrespectful.

So the correct answer is: "Yes, you have the right to believe whatever you wish, but we are in no way obliged to respect your views."
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27-04-2011, 01:04 PM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
I don't disagree with some of the points that people are raising. My primary issue is that there is a frame here that I'm trying to break and I seem unable to do so. The problem is that if I operate within that frame, I feel forced into a position that I don't actually occupy intellectually. So I can't think of anything else to add to this conversation.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

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27-04-2011, 10:06 PM
RE: attacking the "people can believe whatever they want" argument
Hey, I'm an iconoclast from way back. I like breaking frames. Er, wait--what frame are we getting ready to break?
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