belief?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-03-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:09 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:06 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Sorry, that wasn't specifically directed at you. It is, however, directed at any belief system. Simply because someone believes in something, doesn't mean it is deserving of my respect.

It's an "evidence or GTFO" thing for me. If there is nothing to substantiate the belief system, it gets no respect.
I understand.

I grew up in an extremely religious household and have zero tolerance for willful ignorance. None.

If someone truly wishes to learn about something, I'm more than willing to teach it. But when someone comes to me with baseless assertions and a closed mind, they can look elsewhere for polite conversation. I have none to offer.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-03-2014, 11:20 AM
RE: belief?
I think it comes from a lack of understanding of the history of some laws. Freedom of religion, and from there "respect of beliefs", come from a time where people were killed or exiled for holding a belief different than the official one (this is also related to the importance of separation of church and state).
The right to hold whatever belief you like and to claim to be respected is there to avoid people forcing their beliefs onto others, specially powerful people.

But that doesn't mean people can demand from others to hold their beliefs as legitimate, on the contrary, it means anyone who puts forward their beliefs in a public forum can have their beliefs questioned, as the public is not the place for religion for nobody.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-03-2014, 11:26 AM
RE: belief?
"I respect your belief. I respect it in the same way that I respect a strange snake I encounter on my property. Maybe it's totally benign. Maybe it's actually helpful. But I know enough about snakes to know that quite a many of them are poisonous things that would readily murder me and mine. So until I see strong evidence to the contrary where this particular snake is concerned, I'm gonna keep me and mine clear of it, and if I identify it as a dangerous specimen, I'm going to try to rid my corner of the world of it. Not because I dismiss it, but because I don't. I respect every snake in that way, and that is also how I respect your belief."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Reltzik's post
28-03-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:20 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think it comes from a lack of understanding of the history of some laws. Freedom of religion, and from there "respect of beliefs", come from a time where people were killed or exiled for holding a belief different than the official one (this is also related to the importance of separation of church and state).
The right to hold whatever belief you like and to claim to be respected is there to avoid people forcing their beliefs onto others, specially powerful people.

But that doesn't mean people can demand from others to hold their beliefs as legitimate, on the contrary, it means anyone who puts forward their beliefs in a public forum can have their beliefs questioned, as the public is not the place for religion for nobody.
Actually, I think there is a place for religious discussions in a public forum; it provides the opportunity to compare ideas and potentially replace faulty notions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mknight's post
28-03-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:26 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  "I respect your belief. I respect it in the same way that I respect a strange snake I encounter on my property. Maybe it's totally benign. Maybe it's actually helpful. But I know enough about snakes to know that quite a many of them are poisonous things that would readily murder me and mine. So until I see strong evidence to the contrary where this particular snake is concerned, I'm gonna keep me and mine clear of it, and if I identify it as a dangerous specimen, I'm going to try to rid my corner of the world of it. Not because I dismiss it, but because I don't. I respect every snake in that way, and that is also how I respect your belief."
Would you say that some ideas are simply too dangerous?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-03-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:16 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:09 AM)mknight Wrote:  I understand.

I grew up in an extremely religious household and have zero tolerance for willful ignorance. None.

If someone truly wishes to learn about something, I'm more than willing to teach it. But when someone comes to me with baseless assertions and a closed mind, they can look elsewhere for polite conversation. I have none to offer.
Surely atheists can learn as well from these exchanges of ideas.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-03-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 10:44 AM)mknight Wrote:  I often read or hear the line 'You should respect my belief' as a way to address uncomfortable questions. Shouldn't one be prepared to support his claim when a belief is presented as fact in a public forum?

Beliefs do not deserve respect by default.

A belief deserves respect if it can be supported by demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument. Until then, it is indistinguishable from gullibility.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-03-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:36 AM)mknight Wrote:  Would you say that some ideas are simply too dangerous?

I would say that some people are too dangerous to be fed delusional, unsubstantiated belief systems that call for an all encompassing us vs. them ideology with strong roots in murder and infanticide.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes evenheathen's post
28-03-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:34 AM)mknight Wrote:  Actually, I think there is a place for religious discussions in a public forum; it provides the opportunity to compare ideas and potentially replace faulty notions.

I would agree with this. My problem is when people want to state their beliefs in the public forum and say that respecting their beliefs has to be synonymous with staying silent and not challenging their beliefs. Like saying respect is supposed to mean subjection (verbal subjection anyway).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Charis's post
28-03-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:40 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:16 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I grew up in an extremely religious household and have zero tolerance for willful ignorance. None.

If someone truly wishes to learn about something, I'm more than willing to teach it. But when someone comes to me with baseless assertions and a closed mind, they can look elsewhere for polite conversation. I have none to offer.
Surely atheists can learn as well from these exchanges of ideas.

Absolutely. To think that an atheist couldn't learn something from a theist is ridiculous. That's why I require some sort of substantiation. I love learning new things, but "I feel this to be true" or "I had a personal experience" are not substantiation. They're intellectually lazy excuses to not question one's own beliefs.

That being said, there has been exactly zero substantiation for the existence of any deity. All evidence that we've collected about the universe and nature points to wholly natural processes that shape the universe. No where has anyone ever found the "fingerprint of god" except in wild flights of fancy or through scientific ignorance.

I honestly don't debate theists much anymore because of my attitude towards their beliefs. I end up just being rude to them and dismissing them as a person. It's hard for me to take someone seriously who thinks that a mystical sky daddy is perfectly rational, but an invisible pink unicorn is just ridiculous. It's willfully ignorant to assume that one's myth is beyond questioning.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: