belief?
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28-03-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 10:44 AM)mknight Wrote:  I often read or hear the line 'You should respect my belief' as a way to address uncomfortable questions. Shouldn't one be prepared to support his claim when a belief is presented as fact in a public forum?
I usually say something like "Questioning your beliefs is not disrespecting them. It's simply an examination of them. If I was insulting you for your beliefs, then I would be disrespecting them. Why are you uncomfortable with the question I asked?"

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-03-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:45 AM)Charis Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:34 AM)mknight Wrote:  Actually, I think there is a place for religious discussions in a public forum; it provides the opportunity to compare ideas and potentially replace faulty notions.

I would agree with this. My problem is when people want to state their beliefs in the public forum and say that respecting their beliefs has to be synonymous with staying silent and not challenging their beliefs. Like saying respect is supposed to mean subjection (verbal subjection anyway).
Yes, some annoyingly expect that much.
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28-03-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 10:44 AM)mknight Wrote:  I often read or hear the line 'You should respect my belief' as a way to address uncomfortable questions. Shouldn't one be prepared to support his claim when a belief is presented as fact in a public forum?
I usually say something like "Questioning your beliefs is not disrespecting them. It's simply an examination of them. If I was insulting you for your beliefs, then I would be disrespecting them. Why are you uncomfortable with the question I asked?"
Yes, that has to be it, uncomfortable questions.
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28-03-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:14 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of people get deeply offended if you put their beliefs under scrutiny, and I think they feel they actually have a right to protect their beliefs from scrutiny.
Yes, but why is that? I mean most must surely realize that the best way to protect these beliefs is to keep them private. Do they somehow think that, while they seek validation, they won't encounter objections?

Exactly. This why atheist get banned from religious sites almost immediately, just ask WillHopp.

Once you pierce their veil of cognitive dissonance who know if Satan might sneak in.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-03-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:34 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:20 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think it comes from a lack of understanding of the history of some laws. Freedom of religion, and from there "respect of beliefs", come from a time where people were killed or exiled for holding a belief different than the official one (this is also related to the importance of separation of church and state).
The right to hold whatever belief you like and to claim to be respected is there to avoid people forcing their beliefs onto others, specially powerful people.

But that doesn't mean people can demand from others to hold their beliefs as legitimate, on the contrary, it means anyone who puts forward their beliefs in a public forum can have their beliefs questioned, as the public is not the place for religion for nobody.
Actually, I think there is a place for religious discussions in a public forum; it provides the opportunity to compare ideas and potentially replace faulty notions.

Good point, let me rephrase it. The public forums is not the place for religion to be undisputed.

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28-03-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:36 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:26 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  "I respect your belief. I respect it in the same way that I respect a strange snake I encounter on my property. Maybe it's totally benign. Maybe it's actually helpful. But I know enough about snakes to know that quite a many of them are poisonous things that would readily murder me and mine. So until I see strong evidence to the contrary where this particular snake is concerned, I'm gonna keep me and mine clear of it, and if I identify it as a dangerous specimen, I'm going to try to rid my corner of the world of it. Not because I dismiss it, but because I don't. I respect every snake in that way, and that is also how I respect your belief."
Would you say that some ideas are simply too dangerous?

Some ideas are dangerous, yes. The idea, for example, that oneself is the ultimate arbitrator of justice, as expressed by a gun and vigilantism? Dangerous. But too dangerous? Too dangerous by what measure? It's not "too" dangerous if it can be addressed or defused... and if it can't be, then there's not much point worrying about it.

Maybe you mean too dangerous to be allowed in discussion or society? Not how I look at the world. I look at it in terms of things I can influence or accomplish, because dwelling on things that I can't change is a waste of my time. If it's a dangerous idea, I ask how I can stymie it, counter it, or defang it. Disallowing it isn't within my power, so I don't really consider it in those terms. I have no means of disallowing it, and I suspect that most means of doing so would be cures worse than the disease. (Or not cures at all. Banned books often get a sales boost from the banning, for example.) Discussions of censorship can get into sticky gray areas of morality, which can easily be avoided by recognizing that the ends justifying the means doesn't apply when the means don't accomplish the ends. But it's outside of my ability in any event.

What I CAN do is try to counteract the ideas with my own ideas, and to generally try to build up society's immune system to the dangerous ideas. And none of that requires deciding whether an idea is "too" dangerous or not.
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28-03-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:44 AM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 10:44 AM)mknight Wrote:  I often read or hear the line 'You should respect my belief' as a way to address uncomfortable questions. Shouldn't one be prepared to support his claim when a belief is presented as fact in a public forum?

Beliefs do not deserve respect by default.

A belief deserves respect if it can be supported by demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument. Until then, it is indistinguishable from gullibility.
No doubt what is intended by the request is that we respect the right to hold opinions.
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28-03-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:26 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  " But I know enough about snakes to know that quite a many of them are poisonous things that would readily murder me and mine."

Reltzik, that would be venemous not poisonous. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-03-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:52 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:36 AM)mknight Wrote:  Would you say that some ideas are simply too dangerous?

Some ideas are dangerous, yes. The idea, for example, that oneself is the ultimate arbitrator of justice, as expressed by a gun and vigilantism? Dangerous. But too dangerous? Too dangerous by what measure? It's not "too" dangerous if it can be addressed or defused... and if it can't be, then there's not much point worrying about it.

Maybe you mean too dangerous to be allowed in discussion or society? Not how I look at the world. I look at it in terms of things I can influence or accomplish, because dwelling on things that I can't change is a waste of my time. If it's a dangerous idea, I ask how I can stymie it, counter it, or defang it. Disallowing it isn't within my power, so I don't really consider it in those terms. I have no means of disallowing it, and I suspect that most means of doing so would be cures worse than the disease. (Or not cures at all. Banned books often get a sales boost from the banning, for example.) Discussions of censorship can get into sticky gray areas of morality, which can easily be avoided by recognizing that the ends justifying the means doesn't apply when the means don't accomplish the ends. But it's outside of my ability in any event.

What I CAN do is try to counteract the ideas with my own ideas, and to generally try to build up society's immune system to the dangerous ideas. And none of that requires deciding whether an idea is "too" dangerous or not.
Could you provide an example of a dangerous idea?
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28-03-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:52 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:14 AM)mknight Wrote:  Yes, but why is that? I mean most must surely realize that the best way to protect these beliefs is to keep them private. Do they somehow think that, while they seek validation, they won't encounter objections?

Exactly. This why atheist get banned from religious sites almost immediately, just ask WillHopp.

Once you pierce their veil of cognitive dissonance who know if Satan might sneak in.
No one likes to see their bubble burst. Still, there are tactful ways of addressing potential victims of illusions.
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