belief?
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28-03-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:59 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:52 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Some ideas are dangerous, yes. The idea, for example, that oneself is the ultimate arbitrator of justice, as expressed by a gun and vigilantism? Dangerous. But too dangerous? Too dangerous by what measure? It's not "too" dangerous if it can be addressed or defused... and if it can't be, then there's not much point worrying about it.

Maybe you mean too dangerous to be allowed in discussion or society? Not how I look at the world. I look at it in terms of things I can influence or accomplish, because dwelling on things that I can't change is a waste of my time. If it's a dangerous idea, I ask how I can stymie it, counter it, or defang it. Disallowing it isn't within my power, so I don't really consider it in those terms. I have no means of disallowing it, and I suspect that most means of doing so would be cures worse than the disease. (Or not cures at all. Banned books often get a sales boost from the banning, for example.) Discussions of censorship can get into sticky gray areas of morality, which can easily be avoided by recognizing that the ends justifying the means doesn't apply when the means don't accomplish the ends. But it's outside of my ability in any event.

What I CAN do is try to counteract the ideas with my own ideas, and to generally try to build up society's immune system to the dangerous ideas. And none of that requires deciding whether an idea is "too" dangerous or not.
Could you provide an example of a dangerous idea?

Killing people is ok if they are the wrong group (see race religion clan family caste etc)

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-03-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:59 AM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:52 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Some ideas are dangerous, yes. The idea, for example, that oneself is the ultimate arbitrator of justice, as expressed by a gun and vigilantism? Dangerous. But too dangerous? Too dangerous by what measure? It's not "too" dangerous if it can be addressed or defused... and if it can't be, then there's not much point worrying about it.

Maybe you mean too dangerous to be allowed in discussion or society? Not how I look at the world. I look at it in terms of things I can influence or accomplish, because dwelling on things that I can't change is a waste of my time. If it's a dangerous idea, I ask how I can stymie it, counter it, or defang it. Disallowing it isn't within my power, so I don't really consider it in those terms. I have no means of disallowing it, and I suspect that most means of doing so would be cures worse than the disease. (Or not cures at all. Banned books often get a sales boost from the banning, for example.) Discussions of censorship can get into sticky gray areas of morality, which can easily be avoided by recognizing that the ends justifying the means doesn't apply when the means don't accomplish the ends. But it's outside of my ability in any event.

What I CAN do is try to counteract the ideas with my own ideas, and to generally try to build up society's immune system to the dangerous ideas. And none of that requires deciding whether an idea is "too" dangerous or not.
Could you provide an example of a dangerous idea?

Yes.

And I did.

It's the second sentence in the post you just quoted from me.
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28-03-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 12:22 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:59 AM)mknight Wrote:  Could you provide an example of a dangerous idea?

Yes.

And I did.

It's the second sentence in the post you just quoted from me.
So you make the distinction between dangerous and 'too' dangerous; I don't.
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28-03-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 11:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:26 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  " But I know enough about snakes to know that quite a many of them are poisonous things that would readily murder me and mine."

Reltzik, that would be venemous not poisonous. Thumbsup

FC, that would be venomous not venemous. Thumbsup

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-03-2014, 02:23 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2014 02:26 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 12:33 PM)mknight Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 12:22 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Yes.

And I did.

It's the second sentence in the post you just quoted from me.
So you make the distinction between dangerous and 'too' dangerous; I don't.

No. You asked if there was an idea that I considered too dangerous. I expressed ignorance of what you meant by "too" dangerous, made a guess about what you were asking, and answered as best I could in that context.

(28-03-2014 01:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Reltzik, that would be venemous not poisonous. Thumbsup

FC, that would be venomous not venemous. Thumbsup

..... tell you what, have this out and I'll agree with one of you after your 50-post spat. Thumbsup

(28-03-2014 12:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:59 AM)mknight Wrote:  Could you provide an example of a dangerous idea?

Killing people is ok if they are the wrong group (see race religion clan family caste etc)

.... you're just begging to have someone quote mine that for their sig, aren't you?
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28-03-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 02:23 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 12:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Killing people is ok if they are the wrong group (see race religion clan family caste etc)

.... you're just begging to have someone quote mine that for their sig, aren't you?

Feel free. I would join a lot of great people who have been quotemined Big Grin

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-03-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: belief?
I think a lot of this idea of "respecting my beliefs" brings with it the idea that this "respect" has to be the FUNERAL version of respect. At a funeral, you don't usually say anything disrespectful or skeptical of the deceased. You keep a reverential tone, a hushed sympathetic manner, and if anything unpleasant about the deceased is to be said, it's generally very muted and only said within earshot of select people in attendance.

This is "paying your respects" or "being respectful" at a funeral. Unfortunately, this also seems to be the same level of "being respectful" that Theists expect of their opinions in the public forum, as if the very CONCEPT of a debate on "Godly things" is treading very dangerously on "holy ground."

At least, that's how I think those people are coming across with their austere version of the "respect" that they demand.

Disclaimer: KC, I hope you know I'm not including you in all that.
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28-03-2014, 04:59 PM
RE: belief?
I can respect a persons right to hold a belief no matter how irrational it is. I can also respect religious practices as long as they don't break the law or brain wash children or adults.

What I don't have to do is respect the belief. I'll ridiclue the belief if its deserving of ridicule.

Of course its difficult to say to someone "I'm not mocking YOU. I'm justing mocking the belief that you deeply hold onto in the gullible recesses of your brain."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-03-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 01:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 11:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Reltzik, that would be venemous not poisonous. Thumbsup

FC, that would be venomous not venemous. Thumbsup

Touché

Thanks for not correcting me with any venom in your voice. Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-03-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: belief?
(28-03-2014 04:59 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I can respect a persons right to hold a belief no matter how irrational it is. I can also respect religious practices as long as they don't break the law or brain wash children or adults.

What I don't have to do is respect the belief. I'll ridiclue the belief if its deserving of ridicule.

Of course its difficult to say to someone "I'm not mocking YOU. I'm justing mocking the belief that you deeply hold onto in the gullible recesses of your brain."
But then, we might want to remember that mockery only reinforces the illusion.
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