can an atheist be conservative?
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21-07-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 11:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:59 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Various doesn't mean this says

Let see if you can see the problem here. I didn’t conflate “various” with “this”, you did.

I used the attached article and comment section as a reference point, and also another article on a conservative news site, “The Blaze” as well, to gauge the “various” christian responses to George Will coming out an atheist. Nor does it particularly align with the various responses I’ve encountered regarding conservative atheists, which in my view are generally accepted. In fact George Will quotes Buckley to that affect: “I think William F. Buckley put it well when he said that a conservative need not be religious, but he cannot despise religion.”

The response she claimed of folks labeling George Will as evil, seemed questionable, lacking any evidential support. If you want to look through more news feeds you go on right ahead. Or if the poster cares to link to some of them, I’d be interested as well.

There's only a handful of folks on here, that I have a difficult time communicating with, off the top of my head, it seems to be you, and TheBeardedGuy. With most people here, I'm able to get my point across, and have a meaningful back and forth, even if we don't agree.

The problem is how you seem to constantly respond to things that aren't the words as written. I get you did after seeing it also look up some things. That doesn't negate various still... which isn't supported. But it wasn't the intention to be a supported claim so much.

Down to the words again, Why have you when responding and talking about it added the terms, labeled as evil? The word said is. "He was evil." There isn't a good reason to add to the concept there said, to take things and take them in your way. Why do you go on interpenetrating it that way you particularly did? It's little things like that which rub off as deceitful or misinterpretative.

Like why did you conflate democratic party voting to liberal? Why take that as a synonym?

The point being, generally based on some voting or party registration, there in the last 20 years has been a hovering around 10& for Black Republicans. Though that data shows 17% republican atheists in that pew poll. The thread point is still about conservatives though, not republicans.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-07-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 11:36 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  If he were anything but an atheist, they'd probably like the guy.

I don't think so. George Will is every liberals favorite conservative, lol. He's a moderate one, like David Brooks, perhaps even John Mccain. Folks like him don't particularly draw the affection of the base, they tend to be too centrist for their taste, a few skips away from being an Obama or a Clinton.

"I'm pretty much done with George Will. He's devolved into an avuncular dr-uncle, aka a moderate, and that species are a dime a dozen in the dead-tree media. "

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21-07-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 11:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 04:16 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I've known several Ayn Rand-type (though they prefer to call themselves Neitzschean in philosophy) atheists whose social and especially economic positions were, shockingly, to me, what I'd call Conservative, in the American sense.

I'd curious as to what conservative social positions they held?

I'm accustomed to the sort that would be classified as fiscally conservative, but draw a blank imagining the sort that would be a social conservative as well?

Conservative fiscally, definitely, especially in terms of "business will tend to do the right thing", but also in terms of the use of heavy-handed policing tactics, harsh punishment and "branding" of wrongdoers, and their belief in the myth of the equal playing field that WASP Americans seem to think exists for everyone, which tends to erode empathy.

(21-07-2015 11:25 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Which is odd, because Rand detested Nietzsche, and slagged his philosophy harshly in a couple of her books.

I call them "Ayn Rand types" because they were so harsh as to the plight of those downtrodden under systematic suppression of the impoverished, not because they actually followed Ayn Rand. They simply parroted some of the ideas she had, regarding the ideal of the "American Individualist rising because he can".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-07-2015, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2015 12:24 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 11:39 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point being, generally based on some voting or party registration, there in the last 20 years has been a hovering around 10& for Black Republicans. Though that data shows 17% republican atheists in that pew poll. The thread point is still about conservatives though, not republicans.

Go read the pew survey I linked to previously, because it's apparent that you didn't.

17% atheists are republican. If you weren't satisfied with the conflation of republicans with conservatives. The pew survey goes on to break it down by conservative, moderate, liberal, 13% of atheist are conservative. The fact that 17% of atheists are republicans, parallels to a great deal the percentage of atheist conservatives (13%) is not coincidental. But either way, I'm not interested in quibbling about why that is, since the survey polled the liberal/conservative dynamic as well.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones...cal-views/
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21-07-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:39 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point being, generally based on some voting or party registration, there in the last 20 years has been a hovering around 10& for Black Republicans. Though that data shows 17% republican atheists in that pew poll. The thread point is still about conservatives though, not republicans.

Go read the pew survey I linked to previously, because it's apparent that you didn't.

17% atheists are republican. If you weren't satisfied with the conflation of republicans with conservatives. The pew survey goes on to break it down by conservative, moderate, liberal, 13% of atheist are conservative. The fact that 17% of atheists are republicans, parallels to a great deal the percentage of atheist conservatives (13%) is not coincidental. But either way, I'm not interested in quibbling about why that is, since the survey polled the liberal/conservative dynamic as well.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones...cal-views/

I definitely agree that America's right-wing skew overall skews the results and usefulness of any poll of this sort, on a global context. Even within the country, it varies to a huge degree. Where I live, I'm so liberal that half my family are too embarrassed to even acknowledge me when I correct their half-psychotic right-wing rants with... facts. Yet when I talk to people from places like Portland or Seattle, they think I'm damned near a fascist just because of my Southern mannerisms and refusal to go Full Hippiedippe on issues like coerced recycling, etc. (Mainly bc they have been shown to be more wasteful than simply disposing of stuff in landfills, from an environmental perspective, absent some kind of nationalized program to bring the energy and financial costs of recycling down across the country.)

I can only imagine that, in most of Europe, it'd be even worse.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-07-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:39 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point being, generally based on some voting or party registration, there in the last 20 years has been a hovering around 10& for Black Republicans. Though that data shows 17% republican atheists in that pew poll. The thread point is still about conservatives though, not republicans.

Go read the pew survey I linked to previously, because it's apparent that you didn't.

17% atheists are republican. If you weren't satisfied with the conflation of republicans with conservatives. The pew survey goes on to break it down by conservative, moderate, liberal, 13% of atheist are conservative.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones...cal-views/

I did look at it, and remarked how I still was linking "Nones" as atheist and mentioned that specifically. When we started mentioning it and would label it more in that 75-65% more liberal range 25-35% more conservative range.

It still doesn't define their conflation of conservative. The problem with these is what do they confine as the terms? Is it Self identified? conservative. So it's how many Self Identified Atheists are Self Identified Conservative = 13%. I wasn't in any way limiting those terms to just self identified in that way, maybe I want to view the group larger or because there simply are larger than self identified of a group like atheists largely. If that's the context you want to examine it only in, you may be close in those groupings then. But because of what terms you can say actual conservatism is though, I would have it much more expanded than the typical proclaimed US view.

I still don't find the 6-12% that you get of Black republicans equal to the 23% range of Nones as well as the high number of varried degrees atheists conservatives that were here at times as demonstrated by the link to the political compass thread.

There are also still plenty of still social atheists. Not of the religious social movements, but of the respecting Tradition and their social structural values. They don't all have to be older, even some teenagers here like respublica fit that bill. There are guys I work with in that category of "none" who don't believe in any Gods that think society is falling apart and hold conservative views still. This ranges from 20 year olds to middle aged guys on this board that fit that too so it's also not just a high aged group, but from what I've read in the past in other grouping that also adds into conservative views with atheists.

I would say the main type of conservative atheists you see are still libertarian types though, yes.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-07-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
Polls showing that a larger percentage of nonthesists identify as liberal than the general population only indicates a correlation, there is nothing casually linked between the two. Perhaps someone uses their atheistic opinion to inform an opinion on humanism, leading them to the left. Or perhaps they use an atheistic opinion to identify more strongly with Ayn Randish types of self-dependence and lean to the right.

All the poll indicates is that there is currently a tendency for atheists to more strongly identify to the left. The assumption being made by the resident theist seems to be that the atheism somehow informs the liberalism, when it is probably more likely to be exactly the opposite.

And once again, using qualifying statements like "in general" when you throw out an opinion, is completely fucking useless. How do I test those claims? All we can do with polling data is look at brief snapshots in time of what current attitudes and trends are. So, the observation that atheists are the 2nd least likely group for someone to vote for (if otherwise qualified), corroborates the claims that being an atheist and literally any political affiliation, is likely to ensure you won't be elected.

So, when a conservative like whoever this George Will guy is openly identifies as an atheist, and his conservative support begins to recede, it doesn't take very much analysis to figure out why. Hell, even Ayn Rand is not lauded for her atheism by the right because the right (which tends to poll more favorably with the religious) would never elect them if they positively looked at atheism.

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21-07-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 12:35 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Go read the pew survey I linked to previously, because it's apparent that you didn't.

17% atheists are republican. If you weren't satisfied with the conflation of republicans with conservatives. The pew survey goes on to break it down by conservative, moderate, liberal, 13% of atheist are conservative. The fact that 17% of atheists are republicans, parallels to a great deal the percentage of atheist conservatives (13%) is not coincidental. But either way, I'm not interested in quibbling about why that is, since the survey polled the liberal/conservative dynamic as well.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones...cal-views/

I definitely agree that America's right-wing skew overall skews the results and usefulness of any poll of this sort, on a global context. Even within the country, it varies to a huge degree. Where I live, I'm so liberal that half my family are too embarrassed to even acknowledge me when I correct their half-psychotic right-wing rants with... facts. Yet when I talk to people from places like Portland or Seattle, they think I'm damned near a fascist just because of my Southern mannerisms and refusal to go Full Hippiedippe on issues like coerced recycling, etc. (Mainly bc they have been shown to be more wasteful than simply disposing of stuff in landfills, from an environmental perspective, absent some kind of nationalized program to bring the energy and financial costs of recycling down across the country.)

I can only imagine that, in most of Europe, it'd be even worse.

"Mainly bc they have been shown to be more wasteful than simply disposing of stuff in landfills, from an environmental perspective, absent some kind of nationalized program to bring the energy and financial costs of recycling down across the country."

I've never seen any data on recycling being worse for the environment that the original processes used to extract the resources. I have seen that it is more costly to recycle than recover new resources, but cost isn't everything when it comes to reasons to recycle.

*just a minor quibble with what I read in your post*

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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21-07-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
i dont see why blacks cant vote repuclican there are plenty of fine candidates and im not just talking about an alternative to obama
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21-07-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: can an atheist be conservative?
(21-07-2015 12:41 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  i dont see why blacks cant vote repuclican there are plenty of fine candidates and im not just talking about an alternative to obama

Did someone say they couldn't?

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