church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
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28-04-2014, 09:15 AM
church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
a new twist in fighting gay marriage bans.....I'm shocked its coming from NC.

church sues because bans limit practice of religion


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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28-04-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
That's great! I hope a lot of copy cats spring up in other states. Smile

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-04-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
Commendable. But I hope it fails. Not because they favor gay marriage; that's what's commendable, but because they're arguing unfettered practice of religion.

The wording of the 1st amendment was a mistake, wording that hopefully will be corrected, and our culture and laws wisely do not apply that wording literally:

"... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

That's impossible in a civilization. Literal application of that sentiment is anarchy. Literal application would mean Jack Kidburner could throw five year olds onto a sacrificial fire to appease his god in the hope of getting an upgraded lawnmower.

Free practice of religion is immensely restrained by laws. And of course rightly so. In any contest of religious practice vs a law that prohibits such practice, the law will usually prevail. Laws are generally founded on sense. Not always, but mostly. Religious practice is rarely founded on sense. Sense wins over nonsense. So children are not only not sacrificed, if parents withhold conventional medical care on religious grounds they go to jail.

Thus any legal precedent that unbinds religious practice is a step toward anarchy, not away from it. Even if the step is laudable in its particulars, such as this one. If the church wins this one, it knocks a brick out of the legal structure that upholds civilization.

I don't oppose the intent of their suit, which is to overturn a ban on gay marriage. I oppose their argument. Were they to retain the suit but change the argument to one founded on human rights, I think it would succeed, and succeed more easily than what they're arguing now.

But what they're arguing now should fail.
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28-04-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
Aiportkid,
You raise an interesting point, but I disagree. What you are referring to is crimes. Where free exercise of religion means committing a crime, the law trumps religion. However, gay marriage is not a crime.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-04-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
(28-04-2014 09:46 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Commendable. But I hope it fails. Not because they favor gay marriage; that's what's commendable, but because they're arguing unfettered practice of religion.

The wording of the 1st amendment was a mistake, wording that hopefully will be corrected, and our culture and laws wisely do not apply that wording literally:

"... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

That's impossible in a civilization. Literal application of that sentiment is anarchy. Literal application would mean Jack Kidburner could throw five year olds onto a sacrificial fire to appease his god in the hope of getting an upgraded lawnmower.

Free practice of religion is immensely restrained by laws. And of course rightly so. In any contest of religious practice vs a law that prohibits such practice, the law will usually prevail. Laws are generally founded on sense. Not always, but mostly. Religious practice is rarely founded on sense. Sense wins over nonsense. So children are not only not sacrificed, if parents withhold conventional medical care on religious grounds they go to jail.

Thus any legal precedent that unbinds religious practice is a step toward anarchy, not away from it. Even if the step is laudable in its particulars, such as this one. If the church wins this one, it knocks a brick out of the legal structure that upholds civilization.

I don't oppose the intent of their suit, which is to overturn a ban on gay marriage. I oppose their argument. Were they to retain the suit but change the argument to one founded on human rights, I think it would succeed, and succeed more easily than what they're arguing now.

But what they're arguing now should fail.

I understand what you are saying. If 'gay marriage ban' was replaced with 'sacrifice babies' we wouldn't give them free reign to practice their religion.

I get that.

I am curious to see how this will play out in the mind of the 'church people' because the ones that voted for this ban just a few years ago, are also the same ones that cry out that their religious freedoms are being stomped on by everyone. I like it when the fight comes from within.


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28-04-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
Oh I love this.

"Our religion says gay marriage is wrong! And if the law allows it then it violates out freedom of religion!"

"Well our religion says it's perfectly fine, and by forbidding it you're violating our freedom of religion!"

Love to see the fundamentalist hypocrisy at work. Let's see how thus circus act plays out.
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28-04-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
(28-04-2014 09:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  ... Where free exercise of religion means committing a crime, the law trumps religion. However, gay marriage is not a crime.

Just being gay used to be a crime. Less so, now, although there are still pockets of the world where being gay warrants execution. Everywhere that is so, it is religion that makes it so.

The law trumps religion, but the lawbooks still have chunks of biblical texts in their statutes, left over from when the bible WAS the law. It makes it confusing: the law trumps religion, but the law IS religious. It'll be lifetimes before all the religious irrationality is finally pared out of the lawbooks (by no means excising ALL the irrationalities, incidentally), but the paring is definitely underway.

This lawsuit makes a great case study of "end justifying the means" ethics. Its goal is something most of the world acknowledges is "the right thing to do". But its means is questionable. It wants to get there by building a bridge others can use to cross to less commendable places, later on. It seeks to put back religious observance into the lawbooks, not pare it out.
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28-04-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
(28-04-2014 10:19 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 09:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  ... Where free exercise of religion means committing a crime, the law trumps religion. However, gay marriage is not a crime.

Just being gay used to be a crime. Less so, now, although there are still pockets of the world where being gay warrants execution. Everywhere that is so, it is religion that makes it so.

The law trumps religion, but the lawbooks still have chunks of biblical texts in their statutes, left over from when the bible WAS the law. It makes it confusing: the law trumps religion, but the law IS religious. It'll be lifetimes before all the religious irrationality is finally pared out of the lawbooks (by no means excising ALL the irrationalities, incidentally), but the paring is definitely underway.

This lawsuit makes a great case study of "end justifying the means" ethics. Its goal is something most of the world acknowledges is "the right thing to do". But its means is questionable. It wants to get there by building a bridge others can use to cross to less commendable places, later on. It seeks to put back religious observance into the lawbooks, not pare it out.
Well, I was only talking about the US since that's where this lawsuit is taking place and based on its Constitution. In the US, being gay hasn't been a crime since 2003 when the anti-sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional (although technically they are still on the books in a few states Dodgy ). The Bible never was the law in the US. Religion clearly has had an influence, but that's not the same as it being the law.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-04-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
(28-04-2014 09:46 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Commendable. But I hope it fails. Not because they favor gay marriage; that's what's commendable, but because they're arguing unfettered practice of religion.

The wording of the 1st amendment was a mistake, wording that hopefully will be corrected, and our culture and laws wisely do not apply that wording literally:

"... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

That's impossible in a civilization. Literal application of that sentiment is anarchy. Literal application would mean Jack Kidburner could throw five year olds onto a sacrificial fire to appease his god in the hope of getting an upgraded lawnmower.

Free practice of religion is immensely restrained by laws. And of course rightly so. In any contest of religious practice vs a law that prohibits such practice, the law will usually prevail. Laws are generally founded on sense. Not always, but mostly. Religious practice is rarely founded on sense. Sense wins over nonsense. So children are not only not sacrificed, if parents withhold conventional medical care on religious grounds they go to jail.

Thus any legal precedent that unbinds religious practice is a step toward anarchy, not away from it. Even if the step is laudable in its particulars, such as this one. If the church wins this one, it knocks a brick out of the legal structure that upholds civilization.

I don't oppose the intent of their suit, which is to overturn a ban on gay marriage. I oppose their argument. Were they to retain the suit but change the argument to one founded on human rights, I think it would succeed, and succeed more easily than what they're arguing now.

But what they're arguing now should fail.

That was my first thought when I read this. While I am very impressed that these people are trying to fight such a commendable fight the implications here are quite scary.

Once the precedent has been set that laws should be removed because they go against a particular religion that puts everyone on a very slippery slope.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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28-04-2014, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 11:06 AM by Charis.)
RE: church says gay marriage bans limit their practice of religion
deleted my post because I'm being nonsensical
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