circumcision
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02-09-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 06:13 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 06:11 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I have to disagree that women's opinions don't matter. Since it's the mother that is in the hospital when they come around with the paperwork to perform a circumcision it would be in everyone's best interest for women to be informed. A circumcision doesn't require both parents' consent.

Chas - I am surprised by your reaction. You are never on the side of ignorance on any topic.

That's why I was so shocked. Chances are this procedure still exists today because women are uninformed on the issue. Since women are generally making the decision (we are the mothers after all), you'd think people would want women to have an informed opinion rather than none at all. I couldn't believe getting a response like that from chas, when I'm just trying to learn Undecided

I could be completely wrong, but I think Chas was saying:
If a man who could read all the info on being pregnant, yet could never know what it's truly like to carry a baby, and have it born out of one of his holes, has no say on whether it should be born or not, then a woman, no matter how much she reads up on what it's like to have a penis, who will never actually know, should not have any say on whether that MAN'S son is circumcised or not! Since the father is the only one who knows, without a textbook, what it's like to have a penis!
I'm assuming, ofcourse, that a man with a PHD should have no say what-so-ever on whether a baby should be brought into this world! It's not his say... circumcision?
Not her say?

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02-09-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 05:37 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  I think it is a barbaric and useless practice.Drinking Beverage

Oh, c'mon. You're only saying that because it's a barbaric and useless practice.Drinking Beverage

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02-09-2014, 07:23 PM
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 05:39 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 05:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it fucking well isn't. It isn't even a comparison. It is an accurate description.

These are men's bodies - women's opinions on this are not important.

Wtf, chas?? I'm trying to learn about this topic. I will likely one day be a mother, and since the only thing standing between my potential son and a circumcision is me (my husband is 100% pro) don't you think the eventual conclusion I come to, and my opinion on it will in fact matter?

I'll try and remember this the next time you get involved in a debate on abortion, perhaps?

Did you read what I said? You, and others, are expressing opinions - you are not asking questions.

And the parallels with the abortion debate are only partial.

Let's give you an actual parallel. How about I express my non-condemnation for cutting off 10% of a female babies' clitoris? And I explain how it's just not a very big deal.

Your response?

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02-09-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 06:11 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I have to disagree that women's opinions don't matter. Since it's the mother that is in the hospital when they come around with the paperwork to perform a circumcision it would be in everyone's best interest for women to be informed. A circumcision doesn't require both parents' consent.

Chas - I am surprised by your reaction. You are never on the side of ignorance on any topic.

No, I am against women expressing an ignorant opinion about something they can't possibly have a basis for.

Yes, women should know all about this, but not say shit like "it's just not that important."

Please read the posts I was responding to for context.

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02-09-2014, 07:30 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2014 07:40 PM by Chas.)
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 06:43 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 06:13 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  That's why I was so shocked. Chances are this procedure still exists today because women are uninformed on the issue. Since women are generally making the decision (we are the mothers after all), you'd think people would want women to have an informed opinion rather than none at all. I couldn't believe getting a response like that from chas, when I'm just trying to learn Undecided

I could be completely wrong, but I think Chas was saying:
If a man who could read all the info on being pregnant, yet could never know what it's truly like to carry a baby, and have it born out of one of his holes, has no say on whether it should be born or not, then a woman, no matter how much she reads up on what it's like to have a penis, who will never actually know, should not have any say on whether that MAN'S son is circumcised or not! Since the father is the only one who knows, without a textbook, what it's like to have a penis!
I'm assuming, ofcourse, that a man with a PHD should have no say what-so-ever on whether a baby should be brought into this world! It's not his say... circumcision?
Not her say?

Not exactly. I was reacting to women minimizing it. Everyone should be against mutilating babies.

And as I remarked above, the parallels with the abortion debate are only partial. It would be more like a man minimizing the discomfort or danger of pregnancy or menopause.

I am not commenting on what parents' responsibilities are, just on some of the comments here.

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02-09-2014, 08:16 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2014 08:22 PM by Smercury44.)
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 07:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 05:39 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Wtf, chas?? I'm trying to learn about this topic. I will likely one day be a mother, and since the only thing standing between my potential son and a circumcision is me (my husband is 100% pro) don't you think the eventual conclusion I come to, and my opinion on it will in fact matter?

I'll try and remember this the next time you get involved in a debate on abortion, perhaps?

Did you read what I said? You, and others, are expressing opinions - you are not asking questions.

And the parallels with the abortion debate are only partial.

Let's give you an actual parallel. How about I express my non-condemnation for cutting off 10% of a female babies' clitoris? And I explain how it's just not a very big deal.

Your response?

Can you point out where I said circumcision was not a big deal? I seem to have missed that post.

The opinion I expressed is that female and male genital mutilation are not comparable. I admit circumcision is in fact male genital mutilation, but it does not lead to permanent removal of normal sexual function. It's not just 10% of the clitoris - it's the whole thing. I admit, it is a small risk in circumcision, but not as likely of one as it is with the female version.

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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02-09-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: circumcision
I am sorry if I wasn't clear in my criticism of some comments here. Of course everyone should learn about this, male or female.

I was reacting to what I felt were some of you minimizing the issue of circumcision.
It is the mutilation of an infant; it is a human rights violation.
It has no proven medical benefit.
It has no claimed medical benefit that is not swamped by its documented risks.

Comments about it not being comparable to female genital mutilation are morally obtuse. Mutilation is mutilation.
Comments that is not important are morally obtuse. Human rights violations are human rights violations.

Is male circumcision less horrific than female genital mutilation? Sure. But that is probably partly because one is common in our culture and one is not.

I doubt there are any female victims of this here or that any of you even know any. But you all seem to know some male victims.
And, gee, there lives aren't ruined. How do you know? Do you know how they have been affected? No. They don't even know.

Ladies, if I were to be wishy-washy about FGM, how would you react? Consider

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02-09-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 08:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 07:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  Did you read what I said? You, and others, are expressing opinions - you are not asking questions.

And the parallels with the abortion debate are only partial.

Let's give you an actual parallel. How about I express my non-condemnation for cutting off 10% of a female babies' clitoris? And I explain how it's just not a very big deal.

Your response?

Can you point out where I said circumcision was not a big deal? I seem to have missed that post.

The opinion I expressed is that female and male genital mutilation are not comparable. I admit circumcision is in fact male genital mutilation, but it does not lead to permanent removal of normal sexual function.

You just minimized it. Of course they are comparable - they are mutilation of a defenseless human.

Quote: It's not just 10% of the clitoris - it's the whole thing. I admit, it is a small risk in circumcision, but not as likely of one as it is with the female version.

I didn't say it was - that was a hypothetical to help you see the issue more clearly.

And there are different kinds of FGM - it varies among cultures. Some are truly horrific, some are only horrible.

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02-09-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: circumcision
I don't see it as minimizing to state the facts of the intent and outcome of two different procedures, and I'm not trying to minimize. When one causes permanent sexual disfunction and the other is highly likely not to. There we will have to agree to disagree I think.

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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02-09-2014, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2014 08:50 PM by Chas.)
RE: circumcision
(02-09-2014 08:35 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I don't see it as minimizing to state the facts of the intent and outcome of two different procedures. When one causes permanent sexual disfunction and the other is highly likely not to. There we will have to agree to disagree I think.

You are wrong when you say that male genital mutilation does not cause permanent sexual dysfunction. You can't possibly know that.

It is documented that the original intent of circumcision was to reduce sexual pleasure. So, there's that.


Moses Maimonides:
"To the totality of purposes of the perfect Law there belong the abandonment, depreciation, and restraint of desires in so far as possible. You know already that most of the lusts and licentiousness of the multitude consist in an appetite for eating, drinking and sexual intercourse.

To the totality of intentions of the Law there belong gentleness and docility; man should not be hard and rough, but responsive, obedient, acquiescent, and docile. You know already His commandment... "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff necked. Be silent, and hearken, O Israel. If ye be willing and obedient."

"Similarly with regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible. It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility to everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for that member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally. The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened. The Sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him. In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision."

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