conflicting data
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-11-2012, 11:39 PM
conflicting data
basically I actually had to ideas to post but the problem is one is my proof of the other so you get this thread. so let me be clear about what two I am talking about here.

1. historical data v.s. modern scientific findings
and
gender studies.{well I think this data proves my point.
\
basically I want to talk about the fact that two different studies conflicting on this one subject and that being historians and scientist. the idea that gender is a social construct has been debated over the years but I think that the scientist need to meet up with these historians to solve the problem. mainly because the following to examples.

1. I can't point you to the study but there was this scientist that persuaded this mother to have her kid have a sex change. she connected but the kid only wanted to be a male and do guy things. mainly because he had a male mind. i think they tried similar things to this and had similar effect.


buttttt......
2. according to a little digging in history and from what I've seen masculine and feminine are fixed and can be proven to be social constructs by their inability to stay constant. for example pink and blue used to be reversed with pink being the masculine color. think it's unmanly to where makeup. just tell that to any tribe that wore war paint. and can anybody find that famous picture of what it was considered masculine for Freud to where as a child. if you see the picture he looks like a little girl.

so since I got two subjects going here and they are so routed into to one another two separate sets of questions.

a. what do you do when two disciplines like these yield opposite results{not to say there is an open debate. i am just using my brain.}
b. also how can thew bridge between such things be gaped.

1. do you think gender is a social norm or biological.

p.s. I really wanted to talk about the first two questions but Imy proof is routed in another subject so it's kind of unavoidable. thanks for reading.

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 12:17 AM
RE: conflicting data
does anyone get what i am saying

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 12:28 AM
conflicting data
(26-11-2012 12:17 AM)kunoxian drive Wrote:  does anyone get what i am saying

The bigger question is, do you?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Erxomai's post
26-11-2012, 12:50 AM
RE: conflicting data
I do.. basically my main quest is to know what to do when to different disciplines or studies conflict like this. he rest is just intellectual curiosity,

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kunoxian drive's post
26-11-2012, 03:28 AM
RE: conflicting data
What to do when two disciplines contain data that clash with each other? First, we have to establish what EXACTLY are we investigating. Next, we analyse the nature of the data (what type of data, how is the data obtained, etc). The side with the best data (well documented, backed up by evidence) will make a more convincing point.


How then do you bridge this gap? There are various scenarios that could happen
1) Claim 1 is right, and Claim 2 does not contain a single shred of evidence to back it up.
2) Claim 2 is right, and Claim 1 does not contain a single shred of evidence to back it up.
3) Both claims contain parts that are right and wrong, HOWEVER, one claim is more valid than the other due to the nature of data obtained.
And rarely...
4) Both claims are equal. It is hard to say which one is correct for now until more data turns up.

I would say gender is both biological and social.
Biological
1) The chromosomes that determine your PHYSICAL gender.
2) The hormones/chemicals that influence your development and how you behave in a certain situation.
Social
1) What society deems as masculine and feminine behavior.

I'll throw out a random example I thought of from the top of my head. Let's say there is a child, and this child is born physically male. Yet, this child is found to do things what society deems as feminine behavior (for example, wearing dresses). The child feels comfortable identifying himself as a female, despite being "born" a male.

So, is the child a male or a female? I cannot say for sure, that's one thing. I'd say it's up to the child to decide after being properly educated (properly educated as in understanding of what is a male and what is a female, not forceful change of behavior).

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes robotworld's post
26-11-2012, 06:34 AM
RE: conflicting data
Historical and scientific data agree on the issue of gender. History shows us the variance in traditions and roles in societies, and how there is no universal clothing, job, or social position for males and females. Science shows us how small the influence of sex is on gender. Boys and girls don't choose certain toys or take certain interests based on their sex. The reason for the apparent connection in most cultures is social; girls are brought up with dolls and dresses, and boys are brought up with cars and jeans.

There are only two things that are almost always consistent among cultures; women care for children, and men are warriors (and thus leaders). But that makes sense for biological reasons - babies come from women, and require breastfeeding, leaving men free to hunt for the family (and act as protectors).

Outside of child care and fighting (the natural activities of homo sapiens), biology plays no role in gender. There is nothing inherently girly about artificial things like unicorns, dresses, and pink, or manly about blue, jeans, and trucks. People seek out those things because they are taught gender associations. If jewelry was seen as masculine, as it is in many tribal American cultures, then men would seek that out.

Most males go for male-associated gender roles, and most females go for female-associated gender roles. But the gender roles themselves are almost entirely arbitrary.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

[Image: ZcC2kGl.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: conflicting data
well lol i have to add that to the pile off things I have o look into... I have a lot of things competing for my attention and add so not enough to pay.
btw if you could pull studies that will be fine.

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: conflicting data
I'm not sure you have "conflicting data".

Your first point is laughably supported only by one single poorly remembered study that might or might not have happened. I don't call that data at all - find the study, find other similar studies, collate their findings, and provide some actual data before you can even claim to have data for point number 1.

Your second point has only a shred more support than the first, which is to say, it still has almost none at all, just annecdotes that someone somewhere thought pink vs. blue was reversed, some tribes have men wearing war-paint (not the same thing as makeup for "beauty" at all), and maybe young Freud wore clothing that is effeminate in today's society. That's not data either - please come back with actual gender-related studies and their findings before you can claim to have data for point 2.

If you actually provide those sets of data, you may find that they don't conflict as much as you think (it's easy to make assumptions from your own biases about data you don't really have, but there is no guarantee that your assumptions actually reflect what the real data might demonstrate).

If you do provide the data and you still have the conflict, then we'd have to look at how the data was acquired (maybe the studies were biased or just flawed) and how the data is being interpreted (biases again can cause two different people observing the same set of data to arrive at two different interpretations). But it's hard to guess how to resolve conflicts that we might not have in data that we def definitely don't have.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aseptic Skeptic's post
26-11-2012, 05:24 PM
RE: conflicting data
(26-11-2012 03:32 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  I'm not sure you have "conflicting data".

Your first point is laughably supported only by one single poorly remembered study that might or might not have happened. I don't call that data at all - find the study, find other similar studies, collate their findings, and provide some actual data before you can even claim to have data for point number 1.

Your second point has only a shred more support than the first, which is to say, it still has almost none at all, just annecdotes that someone somewhere thought pink vs. blue was reversed, some tribes have men wearing war-paint (not the same thing as makeup for "beauty" at all), and maybe young Freud wore clothing that is effeminate in today's society. That's not data either - please come back with actual gender-related studies and their findings before you can claim to have data for point 2.

If you actually provide those sets of data, you may find that they don't conflict as much as you think (it's easy to make assumptions from your own biases about data you don't really have, but there is no guarantee that your assumptions actually reflect what the real data might demonstrate).

If you do provide the data and you still have the conflict, then we'd have to look at how the data was acquired (maybe the studies were biased or just flawed) and how the data is being interpreted (biases again can cause two different people observing the same set of data to arrive at two different interpretations). But it's hard to guess how to resolve conflicts that we might not have in data that we def definitely don't have.
not that I've read your full argument butt.. I had to correct you on one thing. I am not making a claim I am testing for reasonability of a claim before I make one.{and yes I plan to look into the facts more than this}so let me finish what you said and then lets see what the rest of my response is.. btw why doses everything on the internet have to be an argument.

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: conflicting data
btw my anicdotle evidence is just that its basically social norms that i can remember [not from my lifetime} but it still stands . one reason is each culture{not that I am an expert but is still true} treat gender differently and also even the same culture over time.

p.s. like I said I am not trying to make a claim I am just asking out of curiosity and testing for reason-ability. the idea isn't meant to do anything but drive thought. don't worry I do this all the time. i find the results can be rather interesting.


this is another example i posted somewhere else. the idea was that there was two studies.{and yes I can't show them two you but I like to quote so they are not being presented as evidence.} but one said that 80% of everybody is biosexual. the other said that most bisexuals are pansexual. so be these to studies can a guestimation of th world{about seventy persent be pansexual.{the idea here is to spark conversation.}

1. Striding and swaggering rootlessness without end. The precious flow of life.
2. one should fear sweet a blood stained flower.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: