employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
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20-07-2015, 05:51 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 05:44 AM)Anjele Wrote:  If an employer really wants to get rid of an employee they can usually find a way to do it that won't get them into trouble.

They can cut hours till the job isn't worth it and the employee quits, they can add tasks the employee doesn't want, they can up expectations, write new rules, the list goes on and on.

What they aren't supposed to do is openly discriminate...but they can find ways to end the employee/employer relationship, usually by making the job so miserable that the employee leaves.
This happened to a friend of mine while she was pregnant. She worked in an office sitting at a desk. Her doctor didn't want her to lift much more then 10lbs. She presented to doctors note just in case. She was told to help move office furniture and when she reminded them she couldn't so it they told her it was part of her job to do it or be fired. She sued and won.
She was a single mom after her husband left her after she stood up to him after yet another beating that left her in the hospital. So that pregnancy was high risk due to that. However the place she worked at didn't want her there because she was a single mom due to no fault of her own.
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20-07-2015, 06:31 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
Caveat--I'm not a lawyer, so what follows is just my understanding.

If you're in an at-will employment state, your employer can fire you whenever it wants to and doesn't have to give a reason. Since reasons are what lead to lawsuits, many employers don't provide them. If your employer requires you to sign a contract with a morals clause, and you do something the contract forbids, the employer can fire you for breaking the contract. Morals clauses are often vague, though, and can be challenged in court.

Your employer isn't allowed to fire you for being a member of a federal or state protected class. However, most employers looking to fire someone can find an acceptable justification for the decision even though the real reason is something else, even if one is working in a state where at-will employment isn't the law.

I hope and believe that general employers (rather than, say, a Catholic school or a church, etc.) who try to limit the kind of birth control their employees can use or the consensual, adult sexual relationships that their employees can have are going to be challenged in court and lose, eventually. One more reason why I feel that health insurance needs to be completely disconnected from employment, since many employers are using it to punish, limit, and terminate people.
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20-07-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 06:31 AM)julep Wrote:  Caveat--I'm not a lawyer, so what follows is just my understanding.

If you're in an at-will employment state, your employer can fire you whenever it wants to and doesn't have to give a reason. Since reasons are what lead to lawsuits, many employers don't provide them. If your employer requires you to sign a contract with a morals clause, and you do something the contract forbids, the employer can fire you for breaking the contract. Morals clauses are often vague, though, and can be challenged in court.

Your employer isn't allowed to fire you for being a member of a federal or state protected class. However, most employers looking to fire someone can find an acceptable justification for the decision even though the real reason is something else, even if one is working in a state where at-will employment isn't the law.

I hope and believe that general employers (rather than, say, a Catholic school or a church, etc.) who try to limit the kind of birth control their employees can use or the consensual, adult sexual relationships that their employees can have are going to be challenged in court and lose, eventually. One more reason why I feel that health insurance needs to be completely disconnected from employment, since many employers are using it to punish, limit, and terminate people.

I agree and yes I do believe you are right about how they use different reasons or none at all to fire someone. So what I don't understand is why there is a need to try to protect employers who don't want a certain person working for them for personal reasons.
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20-07-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 06:59 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 06:31 AM)julep Wrote:  Caveat--I'm not a lawyer, so what follows is just my understanding.

If you're in an at-will employment state, your employer can fire you whenever it wants to and doesn't have to give a reason. Since reasons are what lead to lawsuits, many employers don't provide them. If your employer requires you to sign a contract with a morals clause, and you do something the contract forbids, the employer can fire you for breaking the contract. Morals clauses are often vague, though, and can be challenged in court.

Your employer isn't allowed to fire you for being a member of a federal or state protected class. However, most employers looking to fire someone can find an acceptable justification for the decision even though the real reason is something else, even if one is working in a state where at-will employment isn't the law.

I hope and believe that general employers (rather than, say, a Catholic school or a church, etc.) who try to limit the kind of birth control their employees can use or the consensual, adult sexual relationships that their employees can have are going to be challenged in court and lose, eventually. One more reason why I feel that health insurance needs to be completely disconnected from employment, since many employers are using it to punish, limit, and terminate people.

I agree and yes I do believe you are right about how they use different reasons or none at all to fire someone. So what I don't understand is why there is a need to try to protect employers who don't want a certain person working for them for personal reasons.

They are trying to protect an awful thing: the right to shame someone else for being different. It's not enough to deny service or deny a job or fire someone, they want to be able to tell that person it's because they are lesser or immoral.
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20-07-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 07:12 AM)julep Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 06:59 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I agree and yes I do believe you are right about how they use different reasons or none at all to fire someone. So what I don't understand is why there is a need to try to protect employers who don't want a certain person working for them for personal reasons.

They are trying to protect an awful thing: the right to shame someone else for being different. It's not enough to deny service or deny a job or fire someone, they want to be able to tell that person it's because they are lesser or immoral.

Exactly why these laws should not be passed.
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20-07-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 05:43 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 05:41 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If you pass a law saying an employer HAS to keep employees they don't want - you're then discriminating against the employers.

Employers are people too... You can't take away one person's rights to ensure the rights of someone else.

The ONLY fair and equal way is to allow either party - employer and employee - out of the relationship for any reason they like........

While it's not popular with the working people - it is the most fair.

So you're saying it's OK for an employer to fire a single mom that got pregnant out of wedlock?

Yes - it is an employer's right to be a complete asshole. But, that has a way of catching up with a guy - and eventually he'll have nothing but assholes working for him......

It's not karma -- it's just that people talk -- and eventually the word gets around.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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20-07-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 09:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 05:43 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  So you're saying it's OK for an employer to fire a single mom that got pregnant out of wedlock?

Yes - it is an employer's right to be a complete asshole. But, that has a way of catching up with a guy - and eventually he'll have nothing but assholes working for him......

It's not karma -- it's just that people talk -- and eventually the word gets around.

I agree I just don't agree they deserve a law to protect them being assholes.
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20-07-2015, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2015 10:41 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 05:06 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I know this is Huffington Post but it raises questions like what makes employers qualified to decide what is morally correct and what isn't ?

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/55a7ffe6e4b04740a3df4ca1

Businesses are there to make money, so unless an employee is inhibiting the business, disrupting service, creating problems for clients/customers, or in some other way causing the company to lose money, it makes no fiscal or business sense to fire someone.

Employers should not have the right to wield their personal moral values or beliefs as reason for firing someone, but they can clearly do it anyway as long as they find another reason or fuck with your livelihood until you've little choice but to quit. That happened to me when I worked at AutoZone. Boss finds out I am an atheist (I didn't exactly hide it, I brought in a copy of "The God Delusion" to read in downtime) and in the process also finds out another employee is an atheist. Within 2-4 months, we both quit because our boss (and the other employees) began to treat us differently, cut our ours, changed our shifts, and started blaring Sunday morning preachers on the store radio.

The "freedom" to use your beliefs and views to fuck with someone else's life or livelihood isn't your freedom. Be a dick all you want, outside the workplace. Have a negative opinion of their life and beliefs, but you don't get to alter their life in any way because of what you think of their personal beliefs.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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20-07-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
I just think of it as "a self cleaning oven"...

An employer who's a shithead will eventually go out of business - because he'll only be able to employ the worst employees.... All the good ones will go elsewhere.....

And when your workplace consists of a bunch of mental midgets and assorted losers -- your customer base tends to shop elsewhere as well.......

It's sort of unnecessary, and probably unworkable to pass laws concerning such things........

The marketplace will in time sort it out.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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20-07-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: employers shouldnt have the right to decide what is morally correct
(20-07-2015 10:36 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 05:06 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I know this is Huffington Post but it raises questions like what makes employers qualified to decide what is morally correct and what isn't ?

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/55a7ffe6e4b04740a3df4ca1

Businesses are there to make money, so unless an employee is inhibiting the business, disrupting service, creating problems for clients/customers, or in some other way causing the company to lose money, it makes no fiscal or business sense to fire someone.

Employers should not have the right to wield their personal moral values or beliefs as reason for firing someone, but they can clearly do it anyway as long as they find another reason or fuck with your livelihood until you've little choice but to quit. That happened to me when I worked at AutoZone. Boss finds out I am an atheist (I didn't exactly hide it, I brought in a copy of "The God Delusion" to read in downtime) and in the process also finds out another employee is an atheist. Within 2-4 months, we both quit because our boss (and the other employees) began to treat us differently, cut our ours, changed our shifts, and started blaring Sunday morning preachers on the store radio.

The "freedom" to use your beliefs and views to fuck with someone else's life or livelihood isn't your freedom. Be a dick all you want, outside the workplace. Have a negative opinion of their life and beliefs, but you don't get to alter their life in any way because of what you think of their personal beliefs.

Thank you!!
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