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12-03-2015, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2015 12:29 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 09:30 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Why do you say that? Do you make assumptions about everyone?

Do I make assumptions about everyone? Typically, yes. If I come onto a forum called "The Thinking Atheist Forum," I'm going to assume that the majority are atheists and that they possess the thought process that logically follows from that philosophy. But I would hazard to assert that I am not as presumptuous as those who gave me such a "warm" welcome reception when I first came onto the forum.

But, please do not take my statement as derogatory. I don't want to derail the train from the track. To rephrase: There is no evil in atheism.

Why say that? Because, logically, that's just how it is. Look, if there’s no God, and all a person has is a small 40-70 year window of time of existence, then even if he is considered to be "a moral creature," and even if he does belong to a species that shares a "moral sense," and even if people are evolutionarily empathetic, the question still stands: who cares?

I care. My wife, family, friends care. The man on the street cares. It boggles my mind that you can’t see this.

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If evolution is just how it is, then for a person to evolve, they ought to break out of the collective anyway and do whatever benefits them as an individual, whether it is to the detriment of others or not. If atheist, there is no Supreme Being, and therefore no accountability for actions beyond this life. If atheist, why even be honest? If atheist, why even attempt income in the standard fashion as the rest of your own species? If atheist, pure unadulterated hedonism would be the ultimate end. Civilization? History? Culture? Doesn't matter. Nothing matters. The thoughts of the human collective don't matter. The only thing that would matter is how you'd feel. Because once it's lights out, that's it. Even participating on a forum like this would seem to be a waste of time.

If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

You have such a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist is.

Let me ask you what I ask all theists who make your claim:
“Is the only reason you act ‘morally’ the fear of after-life punishment?”

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-03-2015, 11:31 PM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I'm going to assume that the majority are atheists and that they possess the thought process that logically follows from that philosophy.

*sigh*

Atheism is not a philosophy, it's a single stance on a single question/assertion.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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13-03-2015, 12:03 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:52 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I care. My wife, family, friends care. The man on the street cares. I boggles my mind that you can’t see this.

Well, of course you care about your conduct with them. You've invested yourself in them. If you started to use them, lie to them, and do what you needed to get what you wanted out of them, you would lose them all.

But, if atheist, why invest in any of that at all?

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You have such a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist is.

I would say that of you. Though, I'd modify it a bit: you have a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist logically should be.

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘FullCircle Wrote:  Let me ask you what I ask all theists who make your claim:
“Is the only reason you act ‘morally’ the fear of after-life punishment?”

This is a fun question. I will honestly be thinking about it for the next two weeks. For now, though, the answer is no. Not for fear of Hell. Though, that is one of the motivators, and there are many. For now, I can state that the reason I act according to the Christian moral is because I am in pursuit of aligning myself with the will and personality of the Creator. I fail on a daily basis, but I do what I can.

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13-03-2015, 12:05 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 09:30 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Why do you say that? Do you make assumptions about everyone?

Do I make assumptions about everyone? Typically, yes. If I come onto a forum called "The Thinking Atheist Forum," I'm going to assume that the majority are atheists and that they possess the thought process that logically follows from that philosophy. But I would hazard to assert that I am not as presumptuous as those who gave me such a "warm" welcome reception when I first came onto the forum.

But, please do not take my statement as derogatory. I don't want to derail the train from the track. To rephrase: There is no evil in atheism.

Why say that? Because, logically, that's just how it is. Look, if there's no God, and all a person has is a small 40-70 year window of time of existence, then even if he is considered to be "a moral creature," and even if he does belong to a species that shares a "moral sense," and even if people are evolutionarily empathetic, the question still stands: who cares?

If evolution is just how it is, then for a person to evolve, they ought to break out of the collective anyway and do whatever benefits them as an individual, whether it is to the detriment of others or not. If atheist, there is no Supreme Being, and therefore no accountability for actions beyond this life. If atheist, why even be honest? If atheist, why even attempt income in the standard fashion as the rest of your own species? If atheist, pure unadulterated hedonism would be the ultimate end. Civilization? History? Culture? Doesn't matter. Nothing matters. The thoughts of the human collective don't matter. The only thing that would matter is how you'd feel. Because once it's lights out, that's it. Even participating on a forum like this would seem to be a waste of time.

If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

How can I not be slightly insulted by your assumptions? I've traveled, I've seen quite a few countries. I've shared meals, stories, I've heard music that's made me cry, opened my mind to possibilities and leaned not to prejudge people. I'm forever fascinated by history, art and I love architecture. I've donated my time and energy to many causes, delivered meals to the elderly, and helped those not as fortunate as I.

I'm an admin on this forum because I care about the people who come here. Often, all too often, we atheists need to know that we're not alone. That someone else has walked the same path we're currently on. With some, depending on where we live, we can be ostracized for lack of belief. Marriages break up, careers lost -- even myself when I was outed by a family member (during an argument with another person) I was shunned. Suddenly, I was a different person in their eyes. I was exactly the same as I was before they knew. I had been hiding my disbelief for more than a decade and was praised more than once for my generous nature by the very people who later turned away from me entirely. What suddenly changed?

I take care of my husband and children, I've been married for over 25 years to the same man.

I find it so odd that my world view seems so much larger than your own. I don't assume that because you believe in something I dismiss that makes you less a person.

Yet. You seem to think that of me.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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13-03-2015, 12:07 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 12:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You have such a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist is.

I would say that of you. Though, I'd modify it a bit: you have a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist logically should be.

Enlighten us, oh wise one Rolleyes How come *you* jokers feel you know better what goes on in our heads than us? Yahweh grant you root?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-03-2015, 12:09 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 12:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  For now, I can state that the reason I act according to the Christian moral is because I am in pursuit of aligning myself with the will and personality of the Creator. I fail on a daily basis, but I do what I can.
So if your god kills children for calling a man "baldy" is that something you can see yourself doing to align with the actions of your god?
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13-03-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 12:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:52 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I care. My wife, family, friends care. The man on the street cares. I boggles my mind that you can’t see this.

Well, of course you care about your conduct with them. You've invested yourself in them. If you started to use them, lie to them, and do what you needed to get what you wanted out of them, you would lose them all.

But, if atheist, why invest in any of that at all?

That must be the most ill-thought out question I’ve ever been asked.

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘LaramieHirsch’ Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:52 PM)‘Full Circle Wrote:  You have such a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist is.

I would say that of you. Though, I’d modify it a bit: you have a poor understanding of what a person who happens to be atheist logically should be.

Your “logic” is misguided and you are projecting it on others, a double fail.

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘LaramieHirsch’ Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)‘FullCircle Wrote:  Let me ask you what I ask all theists who make your claim:
“Is the only reason you act ‘morally’ the fear of after-life punishment?”

This is a fun question. I will honestly be thinking about it for the next two weeks. For now, though, the answer is no. Not for fear of Hell. Though, that is one of the motivators, and there are many. For now, I can state that the reason I act according to the Christian moral is because I am in pursuit of aligning myself with the will and personality of the Creator. I fail on a daily basis, but I do what I can.

Do that. In the meantime read the Bible. There is hardly a horror story villain that can hold a candle to the central character of that fictional tale. When theist tell me they look towards the Bible as a moral guide I shudder. Aligning yourself with the Christian creator’s personality is to be egotistical, unjust, vindictive and murderous.

Pro tip: Don’t align yourself too closely, you’ll end up in the Big House.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-03-2015, 01:09 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2015 09:07 AM by DLJ.)
RE: evil
I'm willing to invest a little time in giving an explanation to what seem to be fairly reasonable questions (although I do get where Mom's is coming from with her response).

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
Do I make assumptions about everyone? Typically, yes.
...

Fair enough. That's a human time-saving device. Hopefully, you also have a self-correcting mechanism.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If I come onto a forum called "The Thinking Atheist Forum," I'm going to assume that the majority are atheists
...

Makes sense to me.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
and that they possess the thought process that logically follows from that philosophy.
...

"and that they possess the thought process that logically follows from that philosophy lead to that conclusion."

... would be more accurate. Lemme know if you don't understand what distinction I'm making, there.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
But I would hazard to assert that I am not as presumptuous as those who gave me such a "warm" welcome reception when I first came onto the forum.

But, please do not take my statement as derogatory. I don't want to derail the train from the track.
...

This bit is not relevant to me but I recommend taking Hafnof off your ignore list and asking him why he was so pissed off. That dude never gets pissed off.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
To rephrase: There is no evil in atheism.
...

Technically, that's true.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
Why say that? Because, logically, that's just how it is. Look, if there's no God, and all a person has is a small 40-70 year window of time of existence, then even if he is considered to be "a moral creature," and even if he does belong to a species that shares a "moral sense," and even if people are evolutionarily empathetic, the question still stands: who cares?
...

I agree. Good question.

Simple answer: Those that care, care... those that don't, don't.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If evolution is just how it is, then for a person to evolve,
...

People don't evolve. People die. Biological systems evolve.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
they ought to break out of the collective anyway and do whatever benefits them as an individual, whether it is to the detriment of others or not.
...

Why?
You have moved from is to ought. Why?

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If atheist, there is no Supreme Being,
...

Hehehe. Whether atheist or theist, there is no evidence to indicate the existence of a supreme being (unless you count Shane Williams).

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
and therefore no accountability for actions beyond this life. If atheist, why even be honest? If atheist, why even attempt income in the standard fashion as the rest of your own species?
...

Why not?
It entirely depends on what one values (see my signature for reference).

Why one would value one stance over another, is the question. The answer: environment, up-bringing / conditioning, education, knowledge etc.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If atheist, pure unadulterated hedonism would be the ultimate end.
...

Yup. I was 10 years old when I finally accepted no gods or goddesses into my life and started asking myself whether I should give "pure unadulterated hedonism" a run for its money.

I decided that aiming for purity was too ambitious and likely to be detrimental to my health.

So my hedonism is tempered wrt other people's rights. I chose Hedonism within a framework of self-governance (rights and responsibilities).

So far it's been worth it.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
Civilization? History? Culture? Doesn't matter. Nothing matters. The thoughts of the human collective don't matter.
...

Again, this is true from a "universe doesn't give a shit" is-perspective.
Whether it's true from an ought-perspective, depends upon one's values / principles.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
The only thing that would matter is how you'd feel. Because once it's lights out, that's it. Even participating on a forum like this would seem to be a waste of time.
...

Again, you might be right. You certainly are right from an is-perspective but not necessarily from an ought-perspective.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

Your choice, I guess. Actually, I considered this (I dabbled in Shares in my teens and got quite good at it) but instead opted to own minimal property, no investments, to not use credit cards and to give away any profit my bank gives me on the money I've saved.

Go figure!

Big Grin

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13-03-2015, 01:22 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  How can I not be slightly insulted by your assumptions?

There were and are many insulting assumptions cast at me most times I post here. Such is life. I just need to restate: I am not intentionally trying to be insulting. But since our ways of thinking are opposite from each other, our discussions will naturally feel abrasive.


(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I've shared meals, stories, I've heard music that's made me cry, opened my mind to possibilities and learned not to prejudge people.

Okay, you've done many things that fulfill your emotions. You've gained experiences. As an atheist, that's all you have until you die. Experiences.

(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I've... learned not to prejudge people.

Do you not prejudge believers of Christ?

(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I'm forever fascinated by history, art and I love architecture. I've donated my time and energy to many causes, delivered meals to the elderly, and helped those not as fortunate as I.

I'm an admin on this forum because I care about the people who come here.

Why? Why care about these things? You don't owe these people anything. With no Ultimate End, they certainly don't owe you anything. If evolving is the goal, shouldn't you dump the human collective and try to become something beyond them? Reach escape velocity, and propel yourself out of the human world?

(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  . Often, all too often, we atheists need to know that we're not alone. That someone else has walked the same path we're currently on. With some, depending on where we live, we can be ostracized for lack of belief.

I understand this. Please note that I think it futile to try to infiltrate and change you all. This is not a mission to convert. This is an exploration. I, too, enjoy intellectual experiences. So...here we are.

(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find it so odd that my world view seems so much larger than your own.

I don't understand you here. What do you mean?

(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't assume that because you believe in something I dismiss that makes you less a person.

Yet. You seem to think that of me.

I do not know what you mean. What do you mean when you say that I think you are less of a person?

You sound like a nice person. However, I do not look at all people as equal. And also, I look at collective groups of people differently than I look at individuals. (Objectively speaking, a collective is just a different thing than an individual. I would like to think we can all agree on that, but perhaps that could be its own separate thread.) At first, I do not consider you as unequal in your potential worth. But even then, I'm wrong. The ultimate worth of people--even in Heaven--will not be equal. Some people are more elevated than others.

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13-03-2015, 02:04 AM
RE: evil
@ DLJ

Yeah, I knew that I was coming across an issue when it came to "is vs ought" in my reply. However, I don't have much time to reply tonight, and I'm having to think a bit quickly for my replies.

In reality, if atheist, there is no ought. Even the concept of evolving further as a human race does not matter. Why evolve? Why not devolve?

(13-03-2015 01:09 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

Your choice, I guess. Actually, I considered this (I dabbled in Shares in my teens and got quite good at it) but instead opted to own minimal property, no investments, to not use credit cards and to give away any profit my bank gives me on the money I've saved.

Go figure!

Big Grin

I'm tellin' you. Wolf on Wallstreet.

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