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13-03-2015, 02:22 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 02:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
I'm tellin' you. Wolf on Wallstreet.

I've seen the movie. One does not have to be an immoral, obnoxious parasite to be in a position to be able to snort cocaine from a hooker's arse.

Just sayin' Wink

(13-03-2015 02:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
In reality, if atheist, there is no ought. Even the concept of evolving further as a human race does not matter. Why evolve? Why not devolve?
...

Correct. I think you've got it.

Atheism is an is position not an ought position.

Bravo, sir.

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13-03-2015, 02:44 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Why say that? Because, logically, that's just how it is. Look, if there's no God, and all a person has is a small 40-70 year window of time of existence, then even if he is considered to be "a moral creature," and even if he does belong to a species that shares a "moral sense," and even if people are evolutionarily empathetic, the question still stands: who cares?

Is this the good old "atheism and morality" issue?

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If evolution is just how it is, then for a person to evolve, they ought to break out of the collective anyway and do whatever benefits them as an individual, whether it is to the detriment of others or not. If atheist, there is no Supreme Being, and therefore no accountability for actions beyond this life.

What does this have to do with darwinian evolution? Our morality is constantly evolving but it's not the same thing as evolution of organisms. If atheist, why even be honest?

(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If atheist, why even be honest? If atheist, why even attempt income in the standard fashion as the rest of your own species? If atheist, pure unadulterated hedonism would be the ultimate end. Civilization? History? Culture? Doesn't matter. Nothing matters. The thoughts of the human collective don't matter. The only thing that would matter is how you'd feel. Because once it's lights out, that's it. Even participating on a forum like this would seem to be a waste of time.

If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

Why do you see honesty so closely tied to being an atheist? There's plenty of atheists that are honest, and many that are dishonest, and the same can be said about believers.

Ultimately, I'm honest because that's how I was raised.

But even though I could defy my own education, I am honest because that's how I want others to treat me. I am honest because that's the kind of society I want to live in, and it's the kind of society I want to leave to my children and future generations. My honesty goes beyond my own advantage.

The whole "There is no God? AH! I can screw people now!" type of thinking does not follow. I do "good things" in general (not always, I'm not perfect) because I want to do them, not because someone is observing me and can punish me.

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13-03-2015, 03:46 AM
RE: evil
Many replies, and not the time to address them all.


(13-03-2015 02:44 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Is this the good old "atheism and morality" issue?

Yes. Somehow, it came up. I enter the conversation, make a one or two-sentence comment, and as you can expect, it flowers into an eruption.

I suppose it makes sense, since soul created a thread titled "evil."

(13-03-2015 02:44 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  I do "good things" in general (not always, I'm not perfect) because I want to do them, not because someone is observing me and can punish me.

There is this consistent misunderstanding among people on this forum that active and faithful Christians do good deeds out of fear of punishment. This is wrong. Active faithful Christians do good deeds in order to align themselves with the will of God. It is not fear that drives them, but love of God.

But for your former statement in this quotation: If atheist, there are no "good things." Why do them? You say that you are "honest because that's how I want others to treat me. I am honest because that's the kind of society I want to live in, and it's the kind of society I want to leave to my children and future generations." Why? Does it really matter if people are honest to you? If they are not, they are neither good nor bad. Why even try to attempt to orient society in that way--that is, to be an honest society?

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13-03-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  There is this consistent misunderstanding among people on this forum that active and faithful Christians do good deeds out of fear of punishment. This is wrong. Active faithful Christians do good deeds in order to align themselves with the will of God. It is not fear that drives them, but love of God.

I'm sure there are many believers (any faith) that behave properly, and many that don't. And the same thing goes to atheists. That only goes to show you that morality doesn't need to come from a supreme being.

(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  But for your former statement in this quotation: If atheist, there are no "good things."

Why not? I disagree with that.

(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Why do them? You say that you are "honest because that's how I want others to treat me. I am honest because that's the kind of society I want to live in, and it's the kind of society I want to leave to my children and future generations." Why? Does it really matter if people are honest to you?

Of course it does matter that people are honest to me. Why would it not?

(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If they are not, they are neither good nor bad. Why even try to attempt to orient society in that way--that is, to be an honest society?

If people are not honest with me, that's bad because I don't like treating with people that don't value me enough to tell me things honestly or at least be honest about their intentions. It's disrespectful and I don't want anything to do with them.

You're basically saying that if, for example, my partner cheats on me, it's "neither good or bad" because I'm an atheist?

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13-03-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If atheist, there are no "good things."

You do realize that the concepts of "good" and "evil" precede Christianity (and possibly religions in general), don't you?

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13-03-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Why say that? Because, logically, that's just how it is. Look, if there's no God, and all a person has is a small 40-70 year window of time of existence, then even if he is considered to be "a moral creature," and even if he does belong to a species that shares a "moral sense," and even if people are evolutionarily empathetic, the question still stands: who cares?

We care. Do you not?

Quote:If evolution is just how it is, then for a person to evolve, they ought to break out of the collective anyway and do whatever benefits them as an individual, whether it is to the detriment of others or not.

Individuals do not evolve, populations do.

Quote:If atheist, there is no Supreme Being, and therefore no accountability for actions beyond this life. If atheist, why even be honest? If atheist, why even attempt income in the standard fashion as the rest of your own species? If atheist, pure unadulterated hedonism would be the ultimate end.

Since you don't understand what atheism or morality are, I can understand that you would make such a silly statement. You are only embarrassing yourself.

Quote:Civilization? History? Culture? Doesn't matter. Nothing matters. The thoughts of the human collective don't matter. The only thing that would matter is how you'd feel. Because once it's lights out, that's it. Even participating on a forum like this would seem to be a waste of time.

If I were atheist, I'd be a stock broker and work on Wall Street.

So, you have no moral sense except that imposed on you by your religion. Consider

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13-03-2015, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2015 10:54 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 06:05 AM)soul Wrote:  Atheism clearly denounces things...clearly feels religion is a negative....speaks in tones of violated justice...all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God. Atheism gives no explination for evil...(btw I dont bother with spelling...if that bothers you just iggy me)

How do you know what I can justify logically? You are making unwarranted assumptions about me if you think that. Well, what's new about that? Theism's whole program is based on unwarranted assumptions. I believe that existence as a whole is the first cause because a cause (action) presupposes something that acts. If nothing exists there can be no causality. And to start with nothing, as you apparently do, and then to seek a cause for why there is something commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. If you don't know what that is, it is accepting and using a higher level concept such as "cause" while denying a concept that is at its genetic root, in this case "existence" . It is YOU, Soul, who can not justify your beliefs logically. YOU are the one who is irrational. YOU are the one who has an improper starting point. YOU are the one who's thinking is fallacious right from the very beginning. YOU begin with nothing, thereby denying the axiom of existence and identity. You're not satisfied with starting with existence, you go outside of it to a realm which is purely imaginary and posit an imaginary being who created it all but in the end the imaginary is just that, imaginary.

Atheism does not denounce anything, it's a concept. It is a concept that subsumes all those who do not believe in gods. That's it. It isn't a worldview or a philosophy any more than not being a fisherman is a philosophy.

I denounce religion because it promotes faith as a way of knowing things. According to my moral code faith is highly immoral. Reason is man's basic tool of survival and to abandon it in favor of unreason is a sin. That's right it is a sin, one of the worst ones because it leads to all of the others. Incidentally when I use the word sin I mean it as something that is anti-life.

It is interesting that I just saw a news report that illustrates this perfectly. A woman here locally got scammed when she received a letter stating that she had won a drawing in England for $50,000. Included in the letter was a check for $2,800. She was instructed to deposit the check in her bank and then send the money in to pay the taxes on the winnings. Then she was told the big check would be sent. Now this woman stated on camera that she believed that it was the answer to a prayer. She had been praying to God to help her financially and she saw this as a boon from God. Of course it wasn't. The check was fake and now she owes her bank $2,800. She is guilty. A rational person does not seek the unearned. Religion is all about the unearned. It is a desire for unearned love, unearned greatness, unearned knowledge, unearned forgiveness, unearned values

I do not feel one bit sorry for this woman. She acted on faith. One minute of thought would have told her that this was a scam. She chose not to think and she is rightly paying the consequences. She has been taught by her religion that wishing sometimes makes things so. Her sin is that she accepted it.

Faith is a sin, not because I say so, but because it is anti-reason and therefore anti-life.

Edit: I have no respect for someone who announces publicly that he can't be bothered to use proper spelling and grammar. How lazy can you get? But this is fully consistent with your lazy thinking that leads you to conclude that a magic man in the sky is needed to explain existence.

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13-03-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  How can I not be slightly insulted by your assumptions?

There were and are many insulting assumptions cast at me most times I post here. Such is life. I just need to restate: I am not intentionally trying to be insulting. But since our ways of thinking are opposite from each other, our discussions will naturally feel abrasive.

I can understand abrasive. Yet, I don't see our thinking as opposite, we disagree on one point. So, do we throw away the rest? Or do we figure out a way to find a common ground?

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I've shared meals, stories, I've heard music that's made me cry, opened my mind to possibilities and learned not to prejudge people.

Okay, you've done many things that fulfill your emotions. You've gained experiences. As an atheist, that's all you have until you die. Experiences.


Life is an exspience, wouldn't you agree?

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I've... learned not to prejudge people.

Do you not prejudge believers of Christ?


Oh goodness no! Most people I meet in real life, I just assume are believers. I don't ask. If they wish to talk about their faith, I'll politely listen. Religious people who venture here, some have been quite nice. Others from the start, in their first post, set up how things will go. Many come out swinging going on about how wrong they are, how they've had a personal experience that tells them how right they are and how terribly wrong we are. It does become tiresome.

Have you ever seen the Chick Tracks about Catholisim?

http://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/re...p?stk=0071

How long would you tolerate someone who came onto a forum you were in charge of and told you your beliefs are just wrong. That you worship idols and pray to people other than God? After a while, people do become weary and somewhat jaded -- everyone is met with scrutiny.

Here, often religious people come to combat for whatever they believe and against us. I will become dismissive of those types and tell them to "shoo fly," rather than engage them.

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I'm forever fascinated by history, art and I love architecture. I've donated my time and energy to many causes, delivered meals to the elderly, and helped those not as fortunate as I.

I'm an admin on this forum because I care about the people who come here.

Why? Why care about these things? You don't owe these people anything. With no Ultimate End, they certainly don't owe you anything. If evolving is the goal, shouldn't you dump the human collective and try to become something beyond them? Reach escape velocity, and propel yourself out of the human world?


Systems evolve. I like to help people. I don't do it for any reward other than a personal one. Humans are social. We have evolved to understand that we survive better in groups than on our own. It doesn't take long to figure that out.

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  . Often, all too often, we atheists need to know that we're not alone. That someone else has walked the same path we're currently on. With some, depending on where we live, we can be ostracized for lack of belief.

I understand this. Please note that I think it futile to try to infiltrate and change you all. This is not a mission to convert. This is an exploration. I, too, enjoy intellectual experiences. So...here we are.

Good to know. Smile

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find it so odd that my world view seems so much larger than your own.

I don't understand you here. What do you mean?


Your view of people who don't think as you, seems much more narrow. Maybe it's just the way you are here and not an indication of how you outside the online world. I sense I'm more accepting of all sorts of people.

(13-03-2015 01:22 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't assume that because you believe in something I dismiss that makes you less a person.

Yet. You seem to think that of me.

I do not know what you mean. What do you mean when you say that I think you are less of a person?

You sound like a nice person. However, I do not look at all people as equal. And also, I look at collective groups of people differently than I look at individuals. (Objectively speaking, a collective is just a different thing than an individual. I would like to think we can all agree on that, but perhaps that could be its own separate thread.) At first, I do not consider you as unequal in your potential worth. But even then, I'm wrong. The ultimate worth of people--even in Heaven--will not be equal. Some people are more elevated than others.

I guess that is a prime difference, since I do see all people as equal. I do appreciate that you see a difference between a collective of peoples verses an individual. I tend to see all people as individuals first. There are good people, just as there are awful ones.

Have a nice day.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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13-03-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If atheist, there are no "good things." Why do them? You say that you are "honest because that's how I want others to treat me. I am honest because that's the kind of society I want to live in, and it's the kind of society I want to leave to my children and future generations." Why? Does it really matter if people are honest to you? If they are not, they are neither good nor bad. Why even try to attempt to orient society in that way--that is, to be an honest society?

There are some "real" things to consider when navigating through life within a society.

Worrying about good and bad and being a good person is not "real" it's an indulgent prideful self portrait.

The real aspects of honesty are this.
If you are caught being dishonest then you lose the trust of others. Then they are less likely to confide in you, less likely to share their private lives with you, less likely to do business with you.
We also have a sphere of influence on our society. Some people have bigger sphere's than others. But we do have this and often our behaviors bounce back at us. If we want society to be for the most part honest and trust worthy then we improve the chances of it being this way by behaving that way ourselves.
Why would we want society to be honest and trustworthy? Because we don't want to be deceived, we don't want to be conned.
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13-03-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: evil
For now, some brief responses to page 21.

(12-03-2015 11:31 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Atheism is not a philosophy, it's a single stance on a single question/assertion.

The choice of atheism dictates your philosophy, just as the choice of theism dictates your philosophy.

Another example: The discipline of aviation all hinges on our decision to acknowledge that gravity is real.

Ways of thought are built on known sciences and philosophies. Acknowledging a single fact will dictate an entire school of thought and an entire journal of choices.

Consider Chas' accusation against me:

(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  So, you have no moral sense except that imposed on you by your religion. Consider

Answer? Mostly yes. All of my ethical choices stem from my decision to pursue the Almighty. My life path would be much different if I did not believe I needed to align myself with the Creator.

However, whether you are atheist or a theist, there is one truth that supersedes all of us, no matter what you believe. That truth is that God created us with Natural Law instilled in our hearts. But even then, modern man is turning against that which is within him as he slowly erodes the morals written in his mind. The result of abandoning even the Natural Law? Impending civilizational collapse, and a multitude of sins committed by millions of people that even the demons find distasteful.

# # #



(13-03-2015 12:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  Enlighten us, oh wise one Rolleyes How come *you* jokers feel you know better what goes on in our heads than us? Yahweh grant you root?

I don't understand your slang: Yahweh grant you root.

But yes. *We* enlightened feel we know better about what goes on in your heads than you do.

Again, this could be another thread of its own.

Basically, a continuously pursued journey for divine enlightenment turns your perspective from a pond into an ocean. An actual faithful Catholic will look at a faithless person and consider their mindset to be that of a juvenile. Not all Catholics are like that, as there is a lot of faux Catholics out there. But I'm mainly talking about the ones who think about what they are actually believing.

# # #

(13-03-2015 12:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  So if your god kills children for calling a man "baldy" is that something you can see yourself doing to align with the actions of your god?


A bit silly and unrealistic. But I suppose if I were in the camp of the Israelites, and God commanded me--as a part of the army--to conqure and kill all of the Caananites, which included the women and children, I would comply.

Death is not the ultimate end of people, after all. Our existence extends into a hearafter. God knows more than what we know.

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