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13-03-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Consider Chas' accusation against me:

(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  So, you have no moral sense except that imposed on you by your religion. Consider

Answer? Mostly yes. All of my ethical choices stem from my decision to pursue the Almighty. My life path would be much different if I did not believe I needed to align myself with the Creator.

It was not an accusation but a conclusion from your statements. My lack of belief in any gods does not dictate my morality.

Quote:However, whether you are atheist or a theist, there is one truth that supersedes all of us, no matter what you believe. That truth is that God created us with Natural Law instilled in our hearts.

That is your belief, it is not a universally accepted or recognized truth. The truth is that our moral sense evolved.

Quote:But even then, modern man is turning against that which is within him as he slowly erodes the morals written in his mind. The result of abandoning even the Natural Law? Impending civilizational collapse, and a multitude of sins committed by millions of people that even the demons find distasteful.

Please define 'Natural Law', then describe who is abandoning it and in what manner.

Then please provide evidence of the existence of demons.
Then provide evidence that you know what their feelings are.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-03-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  The choice of atheism dictates your philosophy, just as the choice of theism dictates your philosophy.

Atheism is the result, not the starting point.

Quote:Another example: The discipline of aviation all hinges on our decision to acknowledge that gravity is real.

If you think you can accomplish something by not acknowledging the reality of gravity, by all means please demonstrate.

Quote:Basically, a continuously pursued journey for divine enlightenment turns your perspective from a pond into an ocean.

translation: once you accept bullshit as real there's no end to it

Quote:
(13-03-2015 12:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  So if your god kills children for calling a man "baldy" is that something you can see yourself doing to align with the actions of your god?
A bit silly and unrealistic.

Unrealistic? It's right out of the bible. I thought you believed that stuff.

Quote:But I suppose if I were in the camp of the Israelites, and God commanded me--as a part of the army--to conqure and kill all of the Caananites, which included the women and children, I would comply.

Then you have no claim to any morality other than might makes right.

Quote:Death is not the ultimate end of people, after all. Our existence extends into a hearafter. God knows more than what we know.

Prove it.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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13-03-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 03:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  A bit silly and unrealistic. But I suppose if I were in the camp of the Israelites, and God commanded me--as a part of the army--to conqure and kill all of the Caananites, which included the women and children, I would comply.
If your leader were a prophet of your god and he commanded you to rape the virgin girls after you had slaughtered their fathers, is that something you would do in your efforts to please your god?
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13-03-2015, 05:49 PM
RE: evil
Responding to page 22, starting with MSBB.


(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I can understand abrasive. Yet, I don't see our thinking as opposite, we disagree on one point. So, do we throw away the rest? Or do we figure out a way to find a common ground?

Disagree on one point? Yes, but as I said a couple of hours ago, our choice on that one point will lead us into entirely different directions that lead us to completely different conclusions.

You ask if we throw away the rest? Throw away what? Our association? Our politeness? Our ability to conduct business together? No. We are both in the world, though I try not to be of it. And since we are both in the world, it is unavoidable that we will be talking and transacting and all that. We do our best on the more shallow levels. But on the deeper end--philosophical matters--our differences will become very apparent.

I've had many faithless friends in the past that have lasted decades. The key to keeping such friendships is to focus on what we have in common. The key to destroying the friendship is to focus on the differences--and this has happened, of course.

Now, bear in mind that I'm not at TTA for friendship. I suppose I'm here to exercise my mind with you folks and to muse publicly about all that we consider important. It fills my hubris, I guess. But I'm not closed to friendliness or friendships. That's always cool. Simply bear in mind that I will not back down from the defense of Christ.

(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Life is an exspience, wouldn't you agree?

Sure! But more than that, it's also a test. Also, our life is a deeply meaningful reflection of our choices in the grand scheme of the Cosmos.


(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Most people I meet in real life, I just assume are believers. I don't ask. If they wish to talk about their faith, I'll politely listen. Religious people who venture here, some have been quite nice. Others from the start, in their first post, set up how things will go. Many come out swinging going on about how wrong they are, how they've had a personal experience that tells them how right they are and how terribly wrong we are. It does become tiresome.

Have you ever seen the Chick Tracks about Catholisim?

http://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/re...p?stk=0071

How long would you tolerate someone who came onto a forum you were in charge of and told you your beliefs are just wrong. That you worship idols and pray to people other than God? After a while, people do become weary and somewhat jaded -- everyone is met with scrutiny.

After getting banned from Suscipe Domine, I quickly thought to myself about how I would conduct a forum if I were to start one. To be sure, it would be a Catholic forum with a hierarchical structure. But ostracization sucks. I would likely ban people from upper tiers, retaining a lower level for everyone, including TTA people who wanted to "infiltrate."

Would I become weary and jaded? If I were younger and a bit more naïve, yeah. But my expectations have changed over the years for what I want in a forum. I actually prefer more fiery conversation--in moderation, of course--which is why I'm here, I guess. I wonder, does TTA have special subfolders for only atheists? Because if I had my own forum, I'd have about one to three special folders for only particular groups.

Yeah, those Jack Chick tracts are ridiculous. I laugh and scoff at the man's ignorance. He has the mind of a teenage Protestant turnip farmer who's never seen a movie.

(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Systems evolve. I like to help people. I don't do it for any reward other than a personal one. Humans are social. We have evolved to understand that we survive better in groups than on our own. It doesn't take long to figure that out.

Well, yes. You help people for personal reward. Your own ego or sense of worth is fulfilled if you help people. Your decision to help people is based on a pavlonian search for emotional fulfillment. Not because it is "good," because if atheist, there is no "good."

Though, I do want to be careful if I am to guess your motivations. I cannot read your mind, after all.


(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Your view of people who don't think as you, seems much more narrow. Maybe it's just the way you are here and not an indication of how you outside the online world. I sense I'm more accepting of all sorts of people.

Yes. My view is very narrow. This makes sense because I follow a path of "narrow is the path of righteousness, and broad is the path to destruction." You're talking to someone (me) who believes that the majority of people on this planet from the beginning of time until now have gone to Hell.

If it makes you feel any better, even my attempt to meet God in Paradise is not locked in. If I die in a state of mortal sin, I will go to Hell. Though, I'd like to think that I'm on more of a clear path to Heaven than Jack Chick.


(13-03-2015 10:38 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I guess that is a prime difference, since I do see all people as equal. I do appreciate that you see a difference between a collective of peoples verses an individual. I tend to see all people as individuals first.


Perhaps in the future, we can have a thread about whether or not people are equal. I'm out of time for this post.

"Good talk, Russ."

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13-03-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: evil
Continuing with responses to pg 22.


(13-03-2015 02:44 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  What does this have to do with darwinian evolution? Our morality is constantly evolving but it's not the same thing as evolution of organisms.

Is that what evolutionists believe these days? That now, even morality evolves? If atheist, there really is no "good" nor "evil." There is no morality.

In reality, when casting aside considerations towards atheism, it is clear that current morality standards are withering away. Not evolving in any direction whatsoever. People are collectively and individually becoming more evil.



(13-03-2015 02:44 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Why do you see honesty so closely tied to being an atheist?

We're talking about "evil" in the context of atheism. Dishonesty is "evil." But if atheist, and there is no "evil," then being dishonest really doesn't matter.

I find that different forms of dishonest have become more acceptable in American culture as people increasingly turn away from God and more towards their emotions. I suppose Clinton's lies are the first example that come to mind. People just laugh and scoff at his "fibbing."

gotta go

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13-03-2015, 07:28 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2015 07:40 PM by DLJ.)
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 05:49 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
Yes. My view is very narrow. This makes sense because I follow a path of "narrow is the path of righteousness, and broad is the path to destruction." You're talking to someone (me) who believes that the majority of people on this planet from the beginning of time until now have gone to Hell.
...

Since we have you here and you're here to probe, I hope you don't mind a little return-probing.

I know many people (colleagues) with this mindset. I'm sure you can guess my opinion of this narrow-mindedness but if you want to probe / confirm your guesses, feel free to ask... there are no 'atheist-only' sections on TTA, btw.

None of these people are catholics.

Incidentally, I know many people who use the 'label' of 'catholic' but without exception this is simply a recognition of the tradition within which they have been raised. Not a single one has read the bible and a subset (the majority) are confused when I describe them as christian... somewhere along the road, here, 'christian' has started to mean protestant. These are largely 'present-hedonists' because we're so close to the equator... see the first few minutes of the video below for a brief explanation of that.

No, the people to whom I refer who have the same mindset as you describe above are either non-catholic christians or muslims.

They seems to live in the past (e.g. bring back the Caliphate! or like that other SD-guy on the 'used-to-be-Respectul-to-Catholics thread' who pines for Vatican I) or the future (after-life, hell, etc.) after death is all that matters ... again, see video, below.

So my question is...

How would you go about explaining to them the error of their ways?

What techniques have you used and which have been successful?

Thanks.




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13-03-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 05:49 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Responding to page 22, starting with MSBB.

Thank you for your reply, and honestly I hope you stay.

We don't have any folders or sections that are atheist only, so feel free to post anywhere. I did laugh when I read your references to jack Chick. That dude is crazy.
Smile

Hope you have a nice evening.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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13-03-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 07:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ... the people to whom I refer who have the same mindset as you describe above are either non-catholic christians or muslims.

They seems to live in the past (e.g. bring back the Caliphate! or like that other SD-guy on the 'used-to-be-Respectul-to-Catholics thread' who pines for Vatican I) or the future (after-life, hell, etc.) after death is all that matters ... again, see video, below.

So my question is...

How would you go about explaining to them the error of their ways?

What techniques have you used and which have been successful?

Fun question. This one could take some time. Let me think of how to respond. It could be a matter of hours to a handful of days from now.

-Laramie

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13-03-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 06:05 AM)soul Wrote:  Atheism clearly denounces things...clearly feels religion is a negative....speaks in tones of violated justice...all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God. Atheism gives no explination for evil...(btw I dont bother with spelling...if that bothers you just iggy me)

Hi.

Atheism really only denounces the belief in gods. The oldest definition I have ever found in regards to what atheism is has been identified as "the state of being godless,' which incidentally is the state in which we are all born into. None of us have any beliefs in gods as we are being born, but many people are then taught to believe in gods some time afterwards.

Yes, atheists generally do feel that religion is a negative, and the reasons for this are many. I mean, look at what the Islamics ISIS are doing right now with killing people, cutting off their heads, burning people alive, etc. Also, look at the history of Christianity, with its persecution of the Jews, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition etc.

Those are just a few reasons why we see religion in a negative light, and we think those are pretty good reasons.

Atheism has nothing to do with beliefs in regards to First Cause or no First Cause, God et al. I am an atheist who believes that there never was any kind of origin to existence, but rather everything has always existed in one shape/form or another. Things just keep changing, and there never was a beginning, and there never will be an ending. The universe is infinite and eternal. But that's just me, other atheists have different views.

Evil? Does evil actually exist, or is it an invention by religion? I will not deny that some people will do bad things, but can we actually blame that on some external invisible force such as evil? I think mankind needs to mature, look in the mirror, and accept responsibility unto himself instead of trying to blame some unseen, undetectable, non existent force.

Evil is just an excuse for bad people to do bad things.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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13-03-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 08:18 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...

Fun question. This one could take some time. Let me think of how to respond. It could be a matter of hours to a handful of days from now.

-Laramie

No problem. Looking forward to it. Gimme a nudge once you've replied.

Cheers
DLJ

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