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13-03-2015, 08:56 PM
RE: evil
... and before I forget...

a coupla tips regarding they way you express things ...

(13-03-2015 07:28 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
If atheist, there really is no "good" nor "evil." There is no 'is' morality.
...

Fixt.

Is vs. Ought, again.
You may have noticed how some people take this as you telling people who are atheists that they are also immoral.

LaramieHirsch Wrote:...
In reality, when casting aside considerations towards atheism, it is clear that current morality standards are withering away. Not evolving in any direction whatsoever. People are collectively and individually becoming more evil.
...

Again, this says more about you than any thing else.

It speaks of your (mis)understanding of 'evolution' and your definition of and benchmark for 'evil'.

Moral values / principles have changed and will keep changing. This is trivially true. Just look at acceptable moral standards documented in the Jewish (old) testament compared to the new testament and then compared to 'now' (declaration of human rights, etc.).

Evolution, as a process, has no predefined 'direction'... it's all about adaptation to the environment. The moral environment has changed away from tribal culture (Jewish tribes: old testament... Mo's tribe: the quran ... even Gaddafi wrote a book.) to collaborative cultures (love thy neighbour / the teachings of Buddha etc.) and now we have International Standards.

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13-03-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: evil
Continuing pg 22 replies.

(13-03-2015 07:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  I'm sure there are many believers (any faith) that behave properly, and many that don't. And the same thing goes to atheists. That only goes to show you that morality doesn't need to come from a supreme being.

You state two words: "properly," and "morality." Define these words and prove that they are real in the absence of a Creator.

(13-03-2015 03:46 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If atheist, there are no "good things."

(13-03-2015 07:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Why not? I disagree with that.

Why are there no "good" things if atheist? For the same reason there are no "evil" things. Neither the human perception of good or evil has any cosmic significance outside of the current trend of human perception. Again, this is all assuming that the atheists are correct and that there is no God.

To put it another way, consider the beloved C.S. Lewis:

"Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God."

(13-03-2015 07:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Of course it does matter that people are honest to me. Why would it not?

If atheism is true, and there is no such thing as good or evil--if there is nothing we ought to do or ought not to do--then honesty does not fall into any kind of category other than rocking the boat for other human beings. And ultimately, who cares if you are rocking the boat for other human beings? You are not working against the cosmos in any way. Only the preferences of those around you. You are not violating any kind of natural law or even divine law. You are just doing something that elicits emotional biological reactions from fellow organisms.

When staring into a petri dish through a microscope, and when I see a winning protozoa competing against its neighbors, I don't see it feigning concern for the other organisms' feelings. It does not psychoanalyze its disingenuous behavior. It grows, multiples, and succeeds because it seizes its opportunities ruthlessly.

(13-03-2015 07:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  If people are not honest with me, that's bad because I don't like treating with people that don't value me enough to tell me things honestly or at least be honest about their intentions. It's disrespectful and I don't want anything to do with them.

"...that's bad because..." You are atheist. What does "bad" mean? Prove that bad exists.

(13-03-2015 07:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  You're basically saying that if, for example, my partner cheats on me, it's "neither good or bad" because I'm an atheist?

Incorrect. I am not saying that the cheating is neither bad nor good because you are atheist.

I am stating that if atheism is correct, and there is no God, and there is therefore no order or reason to the cosmos, then it is neither good nor bad if your partner is cheating on you. Not because you are an atheist. But because you would be living in a godless universe. A godless universe has no mind nor concern for what happens to you. Do what you want.

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13-03-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 10:42 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I am stating that if atheism is correct, and there is no God, and there is therefore no order or reason to the cosmos, then it is neither good nor bad if your partner is cheating on you. Not because you are an atheist. But because you would be living in a godless universe. A godless universe has no mind nor concern for what happens to you. Do what you want.
That would be true. The universe is unconcerned whether your partner is unfaithful to you or not. The universe will continue to mindlessly obey the forces of nature.

However, you on the other hand, might feel betrayed, disappointed and upset if your partner is unfaithful. You may or may not decide to end your relationship, you may lose trust in your partner unless of course you are in an open relationship. If you decide that it is OK for your partner to be unfaithful and you decide to experience sex with other partners yourself then you might find your world opens up to become bigger and more glorious. And yet the universe still doesn't care.
A devout religious person might on the otherhand decide to become a Bride of Christ, might deny herself any romantic relationships with other humans. Might make great sacrifices for her love of an imagined Christ. And yet the universe still doesn't care. Take's no notice of this sacrifice, gives no reward, simply ignores it.
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13-03-2015, 11:21 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 10:42 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Incorrect. I am not saying that the cheating is neither bad nor good because you are atheist.

I am stating that if atheism is correct, and there is no God, and there is therefore no order or reason to the cosmos, then it is neither good nor bad if your partner is cheating on you. Not because you are an atheist. But because you would be living in a godless universe. A godless universe has no mind nor concern for what happens to you. Do what you want.


[Image: RealityampTruth03copy.png]


Welcome to the real world!


Now, as for how to avoid your nihilism strawman? The honest realization that your life has only as much meaning as you give it. You can find meaning in yourself or in others, in your work or in your play. We give our lives meaning, even when we misattribute that meaning to imaginary god figures.


The rejection of gods and the supernatural doesn't necessitate a rejection of all meaning.


Now grow up, the universe at large doesn't care about you. It's up to you to care about yourself, and maybe if you're not a total douchebag, some others might care about you too.

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13-03-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 11:21 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Welcome to the real world!

Now, as for how to avoid your nihilism strawman? The honest realization that your life has only as much meaning as you give it. You can find meaning in yourself or in others, in your work or in your play. We give our lives meaning, even when we misattribute that meaning to imaginary god figures.

The rejection of gods and the supernatural doesn't necessitate a rejection of all meaning.

Now grow up, the universe at large doesn't care about you. It's up to you to care about yourself, and maybe if you're not a total douchebag, some others might care about you too.

Nihilism strawman? No. No strawman. Do not mistake my posts from today as some way to trick my way into a victorious debate. This is how I would think if I considered the universe to be godless. This would be the logical end--the conclusion--if I believed there was No One and Nothing. If we were just slime in an eternal universe that recycled itself over and over, today's conclusions are what I would think and believe.

The idea of other people caring about me? Other than to fulfill my hubris, there'd be no reason to achieve that trophy, and even then, winning a legacy through deception is very possible. Without God, honesty is overrated. Just look at politicians.

But I have jumped ahead. I'm still trying to answer older posts.

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14-03-2015, 01:11 AM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 11:53 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 11:21 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Welcome to the real world!

Now, as for how to avoid your nihilism strawman? The honest realization that your life has only as much meaning as you give it. You can find meaning in yourself or in others, in your work or in your play. We give our lives meaning, even when we misattribute that meaning to imaginary god figures.

The rejection of gods and the supernatural doesn't necessitate a rejection of all meaning.

Now grow up, the universe at large doesn't care about you. It's up to you to care about yourself, and maybe if you're not a total douchebag, some others might care about you too.

Nihilism strawman? No. No strawman. Do not mistake my posts from today as some way to trick my way into a victorious debate. This is how I would think if I considered the universe to be godless. This would be the logical end--the conclusion--if I believed there was No One and Nothing. If we were just slime in an eternal universe that recycled itself over and over, today's conclusions are what I would think and believe.

The idea of other people caring about me? Other than to fulfill my hubris, there'd be no reason to achieve that trophy, and even then, winning a legacy through deception is very possible. Without God, honesty is overrated. Just look at politicians.

But I have jumped ahead. I'm still trying to answer older posts.


[Image: image.png?w=499&c=1]


You are still giving your life meaning, you just don't think it counts unless there is an unverifiable emotionally stunted multidimensional space wizard as a cosmic referee. Your meaning is still dependent on you believing that is true, it is still you giving your life meaning; even is you misattribute that meaning to something other than yourself. Drinking Beverage

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14-03-2015, 01:20 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 01:11 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are still giving your life meaning, you just don't think it counts unless there is an unverifiable emotionally stunted multidimensional space wizard as a cosmic referee. Your meaning is still dependent on you believing that is true, it is still you giving your life meaning; even is you misattribute that meaning to something other than yourself.

"Life meaning?" I would have no life meaning. Further, even if I thought I had a life meaning, it would not matter to anything in this cosmos. Further than that, my "life meaning" might only have emotional appeal to a collection of fellow hominid organisms who would die off in 40-90 years, after which, there would be no emotional appeal to anyone.

Bangin

Unless, of course, I was a wildly popular politician. Then, my memory could extend into the collective memory of humanity in the form of statues, paintings, or libraries named after me. That is, up until the point that thermonuclear war destroys all of the material.

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14-03-2015, 02:12 AM
RE: evil
Laramie, nihilism doesn't mean people stop giving meaning to anything. It specifically means that there is no overarching, objective meaning to the universe. When you partake of nihilism, it doesn't instantly sap all of the meaning people give to the universe. You realize it is you who gives meaning to everything.

Why is important for you for there to be an objective meaning of life/the Universe? Would things turn out differently if there wasn't? How so? I ask because I would like to know.
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14-03-2015, 03:04 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 03:59 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 12:48 AM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  So, now we are left with degrees of "Evil". Like, if I slide my cock into your seven year old daughters pussy, HOW EVIL IS THAT?? Seems pretty evil, right?


Thank you for this perfect summation of the hostility and perversion that can be expected from posters at this forum. Smile

Undecided - Lecture_preist = Evil_monster

- - - -

On another note: amidst the atheist back-patting and self-congratulating posts in this thread, there seems to be a bit of talk about evolution.

Could someone please direct me to the best thread that TTA has which argues in favor of evolution? That is: what thread makes the best case for evolution against Creationists?



- - -
You know, you are right! That post, by me, was uncalled for and unnecessary. I could have found a less offensive way to illustrate my thoughts. I have no fear that God will strike me down. But I still feel the need to apologize.
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14-03-2015, 03:17 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 01:20 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 01:11 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are still giving your life meaning, you just don't think it counts unless there is an unverifiable emotionally stunted multidimensional space wizard as a cosmic referee. Your meaning is still dependent on you believing that is true, it is still you giving your life meaning; even is you misattribute that meaning to something other than yourself.

"Life meaning?" I would have no life meaning. Further, even if I thought I had a life meaning, it would not matter to anything in this cosmos. Further than that, my "life meaning" might only have emotional appeal to a collection of fellow hominid organisms who would die off in 40-90 years, after which, there would be no emotional appeal to anyone.

Bangin

Unless, of course, I was a wildly popular politician. Then, my memory could extend into the collective memory of humanity in the form of statues, paintings, or libraries named after me. That is, up until the point that thermonuclear war destroys all of the material.


The universe doesn't give a shit about you, get used to it. Boohoo! You are insignificant on the scale of the cosmos, and because of that, everything is meaningless! Oh noes! Weeping


Doesn't mean you can't give a shit about yourself. Doesn't mean you can't find meaning in your life or give meaning to those around you. But if you plan on waiting around for something else to hand you meaning, you'll be in for disappointment.


But the more you write, the more it looks like you are simply incapable of such insight. Oh well, I guess you're just one of those people who need religion like a crutch, you need the illusion of purpose pre-packaged and delivered for you. Too bad really. Life is a lot more liberating once you take on that responsibility yourself. Drinking Beverage

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