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14-03-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 11:21 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Reply to Chas from pg 22-23.



(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  We care. Do you not?

...So, you have no moral sense except that imposed on you by your religion.


I'll begin by noting that there's a difference in this post when I speak of caring and when speaking of my moral sense.

I, of course, care. I try to be a faithful Catholic. The main things that steer me to care about other people are: Love for God and His Immutable Truth of Creation, my love for fellow humans and the desire to see them join me in this quest to reach Heaven. and finally, my investment in people.

Those are the things that drive me to care about people.

There is something else that causes me to want to preserve people from evil: the Natural Law that God built into us all.

My moral sense comes from the truth of God's existence, His Natural Law, and my decision to follow his Divine Law. And most people--even if they abandon the pursuit to follow Divine Law--they still mostly follow Natural Law. Most people are unaware that Natural Law is written into their hearts. But folks do tend to struggle against Natural Law because it inconveniences them. Once these individuals break free of it, their minds become clouded as they give in to vice, and their minds become disordered. It's a hard thing to climb out of.

The truth is that we do not live in a godless world. We live in a created world. Because of the latter, many things are in place that give us a sense of morality, whether we acknowledge that or not.


(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Individuals do not evolve, populations do.

Individuals within a population must "make the jump" in order for micro evolution to occur.


(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Since you don't understand what atheism or morality are, I can understand that you would make such a silly statement. You are only embarrassing yourself.

Since you don't understand what atheism or morality are, I can understand that you would make such a silly statement. You are only embarrassing yourself. Smile

(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  My lack of belief in any gods does not dictate my morality.


Yes, it does. Your lack of belief in Creation dictates your morality. You would behave differently if you believed that your everyday sins were insulting your Creator over and over. At the least, you might try living up to a bare minimum standard if you considered that Hell dangles over your head like the sword of Damaclese.


(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  However, whether you are atheist or a theist, there is one truth that supersedes all of us, no matter what you believe. That truth is that God created us with Natural Law instilled in our hearts.


(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is your belief, it is not a universally accepted or recognized truth. The truth is that our moral sense evolved.

That is not what I believe. That is what I know. It used to be universally accepted and recognized truth. Our moral sense has since deteriorated.



(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please define 'Natural Law', then describe who is abandoning it and in what manner.

Then please provide evidence of the existence of demons.
Then provide evidence that you know what their feelings are.

You sure do ask for a lot. If you really wanted to know the answers to your questions, wouldn't you have looked them up on the internet by now?

Natural Law is the commandments wrriten on Man's heart, and they show the essential duties and fundamental rights inherent in human nature. To quote a historical document written by men with Classical educations: "We hold these truths to be self evident." Sinful humanity is capable of discovering the natural laws written in people's hearts, but help is required to realize all of the requirements of natural law. Everyone on all continents are obliged and called to follow the Natural Law written on their hearts.

A simple example of someone abdandoning Natural Law would be a regretless glutton. It is good to nourish the human body. But to indulge your appetite to the detriment of your physical body or spiritual formation is wrong. Everyone knows you should not indulge your appeitite in that fashion. But some disregard their common sense and the warnings that people tell them, and they just keep on eating either too much food or too much unhealthy "food," and they keep drinking high fructose corn syrup beverages. Before they know it, that person has diabetes, nasty swollen gangrenous legs that are ready for amputation, blood pressure issues, and heart failure at the age of 53.

Existence of demons? Evidence that I know what their feelings are? That is another thread entirely. I'm giving you the Catholic perspective. I'll be happy to devote an entire thread to that some other time, but not now.


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The only logical conclusion is that everyone goes to hell.

Truth seeker.
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14-03-2015, 11:34 PM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 11:26 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  The only logical conclusion is that everyone goes to hell.

Very astute. You are correct.

Most will.

Grace is required to avert that.

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15-03-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 11:34 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 11:26 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  The only logical conclusion is that everyone goes to hell.

Very astute. You are correct.

Most will.

Grace is required to avert that.

Yes Grace. My ex-flatmate. She was Hell to live with.

Laugh out load

@Diddo,
I think you're using a new definition of the words 'only' and 'logical'

Big Grin

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15-03-2015, 01:50 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 05:52 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  if there is no universal good or evil--and if those terms only mean anything to individuals or societies of people--then, as I said, who cares? Bending the rules, being dishonest, scoffing at the law, it would only make sense for a person in a godless world to have only self interest.
I can't follow your train of thought here.
In many instances it is in your own best interests to be honest.
If you lose the trust of others they won't go into partnerships with you, they won't loan you money, they won't do business with you.

To many people it is important to be able to trust who they do business with. If you ruin your reputation then it will limit your options within society regardless of whether there is a quiet invisible god watching or not.
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15-03-2015, 03:43 AM
RE: evil
(12-03-2015 04:53 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 12:48 AM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Soul: So, you think we atheists need to explain "Evil" to you? Because your Bible explains it better? Well, you are RIGHT when you say we can't do that! Is stepping on a bug evil? Well it is to the bug. So, I think it is obvious (since we all step on bugs) that we are all "evil". So, now we are left with degrees of "Evil". Like, if I slide my cock into your seven year old daughters pussy, HOW EVIL IS THAT?? Seems pretty evil, right? Well there's a reason why that is so! It's self preservation. If we all run around raping whoever we please, taking what we want, killing our neighbors. We won't survive long! It's not a question of "evil" It's how we have learned to survive so far.

I knew when you showed back up that it would only be a matter of time before your favorite topic came up again.

Others may have forgotten, I haven't.
My favorite topic?
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15-03-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 11:21 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Reply to Chas from pg 22-23.



(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  We care. Do you not?

...So, you have no moral sense except that imposed on you by your religion.


I'll begin by noting that there's a difference in this post when I speak of caring and when speaking of my moral sense.

I, of course, care. I try to be a faithful Catholic. The main things that steer me to care about other people are: Love for God and His Immutable Truth of Creation, my love for fellow humans and the desire to see them join me in this quest to reach Heaven. and finally, my investment in people.

Those are the things that drive me to care about people.

There is something else that causes me to want to preserve people from evil: the Natural Law that God built into us all.

There is no evidence of God, hence no 'Natural Law'.

Quote:My moral sense comes from the truth of God's existence, His Natural Law, and my decision to follow his Divine Law. And most people--even if they abandon the pursuit to follow Divine Law--they still mostly follow Natural Law. Most people are unaware that Natural Law is written into their hearts.

Very poetic, but without any factual basis.

Quote:But folks do tend to struggle against Natural Law because it inconveniences them. Once these individuals break free of it, their minds become clouded as they give in to vice, and their minds become disordered. It's a hard thing to climb out of.

Yet another baseless statement. Evolution has resulted in humans having empathy as well as self-preservation. I suspect your definition of 'vice' is that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Quote:The truth is that we do not live in a godless world. We live in a created world. Because of the latter, many things are in place that give us a sense of morality, whether we acknowledge that or not.

The truth is, we live in a world that looks exactly like one without any gods. Because of evolution, we have a basic sense of morality; whether you acknowledge that or not, there is evidence.

Quote:
(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Individuals do not evolve, populations do.

Individuals within a population must "make the jump" in order for micro evolution to occur.

Existing individuals make no jumps. It is only the germ cells that effect change via errors in their DNA. It is imperfect replication that is the engine of evolution.

Quote:
(13-03-2015 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Since you don't understand what atheism or morality are, I can understand that you would make such a silly statement. You are only embarrassing yourself.

Since you don't understand what atheism or morality are, I can understand that you would make such a silly statement. You are only embarrassing yourself. Smile

(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  My lack of belief in any gods does not dictate my morality.


Yes, it does. Your lack of belief in Creation dictates your morality. You would behave differently if you believed that your everyday sins were insulting your Creator over and over. At the least, you might try living up to a bare minimum standard if you considered that Hell dangles over your head like the sword of Damaclese.

*Damocles

No, it really doesn't. My lack of belief in gods merely removes that source - it does not dictate where morality comes from. I live up to standards that are partly innate and partly reasoned. For you to assert that I have no 'bare standard' is foolish and blind, not to mention arrogant and insulting.

Quote:
(12-03-2015 10:47 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  However, whether you are atheist or a theist, there is one truth that supersedes all of us, no matter what you believe. That truth is that God created us with Natural Law instilled in our hearts.

(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is your belief, it is not a universally accepted or recognized truth. The truth is that our moral sense evolved.

That is not what I believe. That is what I know. It used to be universally accepted and recognized truth. Our moral sense has since deteriorated.

No, you don't know that. You can't know that as you have no evidence. You believe it.

Quote:
(13-03-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please define 'Natural Law', then describe who is abandoning it and in what manner.

Then please provide evidence of the existence of demons.
Then provide evidence that you know what their feelings are.

You sure do ask for a lot. If you really wanted to know the answers to your questions, wouldn't you have looked them up on the internet by now?

A lot? I only ask for evidence for your bare assertions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-03-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: evil
(14-03-2015 06:32 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I do not know what Ameron1963's posts are consistently like. However, he knew he went over the top, he apologized, and I accepted. You don't see that too often.

As for GirlyMan's post #254, you've won a spot with the ignored. I'm not going to tolerate unregretful adolescent filth such as that. That is very below standard, and very cheap, among other things.

WOO HOO! I made the grade. Like a boss.

[Image: boss.jpg]

#sigh
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15-03-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: evil
I heard the news today oh boy, about a lucky man who made the grade.



#sigh
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16-03-2015, 01:03 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2015 01:25 PM by LaramieHirsch.)
RE: evil
reply to post on page 23

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 03:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  The choice of atheism dictates your philosophy, just as the choice of theism dictates your philosophy.

Atheism is the result, not the starting point.

Wrong. We choose to either believe or not believe. We then bolster our belief as time progresses. For example, you are probably more atheist now than you were when you first chose the path. I am definitely more traditionally Catholic now than I was when I first converted 14 years ago. So, the result is bolstered belief.


Quote:Another example: The discipline of aviation all hinges on our decision to acknowledge that gravity is real.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  If you think you can accomplish something by not acknowledging the reality of gravity, by all means please demonstrate.

My point exactly. We cannot have an aviation industry without acknowledgeing gravity. We cannot have a traditional moral legal institution without belief in a universal truth. You cannot have atheist altruism without the denial of universal truth. Our religious choice determines our philosophy.

Quote:Basically, a continuously pursued journey for divine enlightenment turns your perspective from a pond into an ocean.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  translation: once you accept bullshit as real there's no end to it

I'd say this definitely applies in your case.

Quote:A bit silly and unrealistic.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Unrealistic? It's right out of the bible. I thought you believed that stuff.

Ooo! Wait! Is that the story of when God sent the bears to eat the children? I like that one. You know, there's even a picture of that? I forget the illustrator. Unable to post pictures right now.

Quote:But I suppose if I were in the camp of the Israelites, and God commanded me--as a part of the army--to conqure and kill all of the Caananites, which included the women and children, I would comply.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Then you have no claim to any morality other than might makes right.

No. That is an incorrect conclusion. I've been citing my claim to morality, and I think I've explained this in recent posts after page 23. God is quite mighty, yes. But that's not why I follow Him.

Quote:Death is not the ultimate end of people, after all. Our existence extends into a hearafter. God knows more than what we know.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Prove it.

Prove it is not. Smile

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16-03-2015, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2015 01:24 PM by LaramieHirsch.)
RE: evil
failed edit

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