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16-03-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 01:03 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Wrong. We choose to either believe or not believe. We then bolster our belief as time progresses. For example, you are probably more atheist now than you were when you first chose the path. I am definitely more traditionally Catholic now than I was when I first converted 14 years ago. So, the result is bolstered belief.

I never "chose the path" of atheism. I listened to the claims of theism and saw nothing in it that could be demonstrated to be true. I've been an atheist my entire life because I never saw any evidence to believe in any of the god claims.

You may have "chosen" to believe but you don't get to tell me how or why I do not. You do not know my experiences or my mind.

I continue to interact and listen to the claims because I'm always looking for evidence that conflicts with what I believe or don't believe. You seem to be proud of having and promoting confirmation bias.


Quote:My point exactly. We cannot have an aviation industry without acknowledgeing gravity.

Agreed

Quote:We cannot have a traditional moral legal institution without belief in a universal truth.

I have no idea what you mean by "a traditional moral legal institution" or "universal truth". We can certainly have a society without religion, and from what I can see of current societies that approach that situation, we'd all be much better off if we did.

Quote:You cannot have atheist altruism without the denial of universal truth. Our religious choice determines our philosophy.

I don't consider atheism to be a choice. I did not decide to be an atheist and then look for things to confirm that conclusion; I started by looking at what exists and asking what best explains what I see. The evidence I have found doesn't support the idea that a god exists.

Quote:I'd say this definitely applies in your case.

You are the one coming here and offering unsubstantiated claims. If you have evidence supporting your beliefs then please present it. If not, then I will continue to consider it to be bullshit.

Quote:Ooo! Wait! Is that the story of when God sent the bears to eat the children? I like that one. You know, there's even a picture of that? I forget the illustrator. Unable to post pictures right now.

I'm sure you have an apologetic for it. I notice that you don't offer it though.

Quote:
Quote:But I suppose if I were in the camp of the Israelites, and God commanded me--as a part of the army--to conqure and kill all of the Caananites, which included the women and children, I would comply.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Then you have no claim to any morality other than might makes right.

No. That is an incorrect conclusion. I've been citing my claim to morality, and I think I've explained this in recent posts after page 23. God is quite mighty, yes. But that's not why I follow Him.

That is not a response to what I said. I don't care why you follow your god because I don't believe it exists. I don't care where you think you get your morality from because the end result is that you accept a morality that is, for all intents and purposes, based on might makes right.

Quote:
Quote:Death is not the ultimate end of people, after all. Our existence extends into a hearafter. God knows more than what we know.

(13-03-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Prove it.

Prove it is not. Smile

That's not how the burden of proof works. You are claiming that death is not the ultimate end. What demonstrable evidence do you have that that claim is true?

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16-03-2015, 03:19 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I never "chose the path" of atheism. I listened to the claims of theism and saw nothing in it that could be demonstrated to be true. I've been an atheist my entire life because I never saw any evidence to believe in any of the god claims.

Yes, but every time there is a fork in the road, you have to choose what path to go down. Every such opportunity is a choice.

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You may have "chosen" to believe but you don't get to tell me how or why I do not. You do not know my experiences or my mind.

Did I claim to know your experiences or your mind?

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You seem to be proud of having and promoting confirmation bias.

...

That's not how the burden of proof works. You are claiming that death is not the ultimate end. What demonstrable evidence do you have that that claim is true?

Shrug. Drinking Beverage

There're many things that confirm my faith. I just haven't spilled out everything here in an encyclopedic fashion. I will not state everything about myself on the internet. Speaking of encyclopedic, I've always considered forum discussions as casual internet conversation. Also, forums tend to make people come off as if they are an authority on a subject. I am not.

Plus, we are talking about the concept of what "evil" is in a Creationism folder. I'm not attempting to convince you that there is life after death. You're getting input from a person (me) who has a Catholic bias.

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:We cannot have a traditional moral legal institution without belief in a universal truth.

I have no idea what you mean by "a traditional moral legal institution" or "universal truth". We can certainly have a society without religion, and from what I can see of current societies that approach that situation, we'd all be much better off if we did.

How can you not know what I'm implying by "traditional moral legal institution?" Do you live in subSaharan Africa? Kuwait? Not know what "universal truth" means? Have you not been reading what I stated in this thread?

As far as current societies without religion, they are on the way out. You're getting a bit of a preview of this with what's happening in Europe. The embraced secularism has made the Continent weak. A vaccuum has been created, and Islam is pouring in to fill in the space. Godless people who won't screw to replace themselves are getting outnumbered by the Mohammedens who feel they have a divine mission to conquer Dar al-Harb either through force or through invasion via immigration and heavy breeding. This will eventually happen in the US as well.

However, these things can only be measured in decades.

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You are the one coming here and offering unsubstantiated claims. If you have evidence supporting your beliefs then please present it. If not, then I will continue to consider it to be bullshit.

I'm not inclined to substantiate every single claim that I make. You will either have to meet me on some level and give me the benefit of the doubt in order to follow certain discussions, or you can question every elementary phrase or word that I type. I'll probably get bored with the latter.

As I keep sayin', I was initially invited here to give a Catholic perspective. I'm not here to prove or disprove things.

Quote:God sent the bears to eat the children

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I'm sure you have an apologetic for it. I notice that you don't offer it though.

It's off topic.

(16-03-2015 01:24 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't care why you follow your god because I don't believe it exists. I don't care where you think you get your morality from because the end result is that you accept a morality that is, for all intents and purposes, based on might makes right.

Likewise.

And since you don't care about what I have to say, I would suggest you butt out of the thread, particularly since you don't seem to understand the terminology.

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16-03-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: evil
How do you 'choose' to believe in something that you have no evidence for?

How do you suspend what you know to be true for what you wish to be true?

Wanting something doesn't make it so.

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16-03-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: evil
(13-03-2015 10:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 10:42 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I am stating that if atheism is correct, and there is no God, and there is therefore no order or reason to the cosmos, then it is neither good nor bad if your partner is cheating on you. Not because you are an atheist. But because you would be living in a godless universe. A godless universe has no mind nor concern for what happens to you. Do what you want.
That would be true. The universe is unconcerned whether your partner is unfaithful to you or not. The universe will continue to mindlessly obey the forces of nature.

However, you on the other hand, might feel betrayed, disappointed and upset if your partner is unfaithful. You may or may not decide to end your relationship, you may lose trust in your partner unless of course you are in an open relationship. If you decide that it is OK for your partner to be unfaithful and you decide to experience sex with other partners yourself then you might find your world opens up to become bigger and more glorious. And yet the universe still doesn't care.
A devout religious person might on the otherhand decide to become a Bride of Christ, might deny herself any romantic relationships with other humans. Might make great sacrifices for her love of an imagined Christ. And yet the universe still doesn't care. Take's no notice of this sacrifice, gives no reward, simply ignores it.

We both agree. If the premise of atheism is true, then everything you said is correct.

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16-03-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 03:19 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Yes, but every time there is a fork in the road, you have to choose what path to go down. Every such opportunity is a choice.

Your ability to dodge the issue is astounding. I did not "choose" to be an atheist.

Quote:Did I claim to know your experiences or your mind?

Yes. "For example, you are probably more atheist now than you were when you first chose the path."

Quote:Shrug. Drinking Beverage

As I thought. No response to anything.

Quote:There're many things that confirm my faith. I just haven't spilled out everything here in an encyclopedic fashion. I will not state everything about myself on the internet. Speaking of encyclopedic, I've always considered forum discussions as casual internet conversation. Also, forums tend to make people come off as if they are an authority on a subject. I am not.

Plus, we are talking about the concept of what "evil" is in a Creationism folder. I'm not attempting to convince you that there is life after death. You're getting input from a person (me) who has a Catholic bias.

You're the talking about witnessing to people. You are very bad at it.

Quote:How can you not know what I'm implying by "traditional moral legal institution?" Do you live in subSaharan Africa? Kuwait? Not know what "universal truth" means? Have you not been reading what I stated in this thread?

I don't find "traditional moral legal institution" to be a meaningful phrase. Legal institutions define laws which often overlap the idea of morality but they aren't the same thing. I don't know what you are trying to convey with that phrase and your inability to express an idea is not my problem.

I also don't know what you mean by a universal truth. There are things that I believe are true everywhere in our universe (e.g. the logical absolutes) but I don't think you mean that.

Quote:As far as current societies without religion, they are on the way out. You're getting a bit of a preview of this with what's happening in Europe. The embraced secularism has made the Continent weak. A vaccuum has been created, and Islam is pouring in to fill in the space. Godless people who won't screw to replace themselves are getting outnumbered by the Mohammedens who feel they have a divine mission to conquer Dar al-Harb either through force or through invasion via immigration and heavy breeding. This will eventually happen in the US as well.

Wow. What a ringing endorsement for religion; it can't demonstrate that it can provide a better society but it can out-breed the secular people. It remains to be seen what will happen in Europe but if your prediction comes true it is NOT a case against secular societies, it is a prime example of why religion is harmful.

Also, I did not say that secular societies would necessarily win out over theistic ones. You are arguing a strawman.

Quote:I'm not inclined to substantiate every single claim that I make.

That which can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote: You will either have to meet me on some level and give me the benefit of the doubt in order to follow certain discussions, or you can question every elementary phrase or word that I type. I'll probably get bored with the latter.

You are on a board for atheists and skeptics. If you think that it makes sense to present arguments without evidence then I think you are going to find nothing but resistance and questioning. You may accept things for any number of reasons but I accept things because the evidence supports them. When you get bored enough of people not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for your unsupported claims I suggest you head over to a religious forum where you'd feel more at home.

Quote:As I keep sayin', I was initially invited here to give a Catholic perspective. I'm not here to prove or disprove things.

A perspective without reasoning and evidence behind it has no value.

Quote:And since you don't care about what I have to say, I would suggest you butt out of the thread, particularly since you don't seem to understand the terminology.

Stringing words together without meaning isn't "terminology", it's nonsense.

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16-03-2015, 05:36 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2015 05:39 PM by LaramieHirsch.)
RE: evil
More from pg 24:

(14-03-2015 02:12 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Laramie, nihilism doesn't mean people stop giving meaning to anything. It specifically means that there is no overarching, objective meaning to the universe. When you partake of nihilism, it doesn't instantly sap all of the meaning people give to the universe. You realize it is you who gives meaning to everything.

Why is important for you for there to be an objective meaning of life/the Universe? Would things turn out differently if there wasn't? How so? I ask because I would like to know.

Correct. In a hypothetically godless universe, meaning is restricted to whatever value people agree upon. Let's suppose that everyone in the world instantaneously decides to give up on religion, and they all become atheist. Tell me, do you think that they will all agree on how laws and ethics should be arranged? Do you honestly think there will not be differences of opinion in that hypothetical atheist universe? Wars will not end if that happened.

Another result of that scenario, I imagine, would be a massive wave of depression among most humans, as people will lose their sense of significance. I'd bet there would be a severe demographic decline, as people would stop having children. Also, I imagine life would become cheap, and we would see an increase in many kinds of murder. Substance abuse would rise, probably.

Q: Why is it important for me that there is objective meaning to the Universe?
A: Because good and evil are defined by that objective meaning. Knowing the objective meaning of the Universe will help us to direct our morals. Not to mention the fact that knowing objective meaning will help lead us closer to the Creator.

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16-03-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 05:36 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  More from pg 24:

(14-03-2015 02:12 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Laramie, nihilism doesn't mean people stop giving meaning to anything. It specifically means that there is no overarching, objective meaning to the universe. When you partake of nihilism, it doesn't instantly sap all of the meaning people give to the universe. You realize it is you who gives meaning to everything.

Why is important for you for there to be an objective meaning of life/the Universe? Would things turn out differently if there wasn't? How so? I ask because I would like to know.

Correct. Meaning is restricted to whatever value people agree upon. Let's suppose that everyone in the world instantaneously decides to give up on religion, and they all become atheist. Tell me, do you think that they will all agree on how laws and ethics should be arranged? Do you honestly think there will not be differences of opinion in that hypothetical atheist universe? Wars will not end if that happened.

Another result of that scenario, I imagine, would be a massive wave of depression among most humans, as people will lose their sense of significance. I'd bet there would be a severe demographic decline, as people would stop having children. Also, I imagine life would become cheap, and we would see an increase in many kinds of murder. Substance abuse would rise, probably.

Q: Why is it important for me that there is objective meaning to the Universe?
A: Because good and evil are defined by that objective meaning. Knowing the objective meaning of the Universe will help us to direct our morals. Not to mention the fact that knowing objective meaning will help lead us closer to the Creator.

So do you think that atheists don't have ethics?

What would the depression be caused by...the loss of something that might be?

Substance abuse would increase? Why? Being religious doesn't stop the use of drugs and alcohol.

You are assuming too much - it really sounds as though you believe the 'godless heathen' scenario. If you open your mind a bit you will see that is false.

You have bought into a quite misguided belief regarding people that don't share your faith practices.

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16-03-2015, 07:17 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 05:36 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Tell me, do you think that they will all agree on how laws and ethics should be arranged?

Of course not, but if everybody agreed to base decisions on actual evidence we'd have a better chance of coming to rational conclusions than ever before. Basing laws on revealed "truth" has been tried for thousands of years and since there are so many conflicting "truths" there is no way to reach agreement using them.

Quote:Another result of that scenario, I imagine, would be a massive wave of depression among most humans, as people will lose their sense of significance.

Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that when theists give up religion there is an initial depression but that goes away. They realize that they haven't lost anything real and that they can now have much more control over their lives than they ever did before. I've never met an ex-theist that is sorry to have given up their belief because they find out that life is so much better without the superstition.

Quote:I'd bet there would be a severe demographic decline, as people would stop having children.

Atheists have children. There might be a decline in the birthrate without the religious push to manufacture more believers but people would still have children. They'd also be having them because they decided they want them, not because they feel that they are required to. I see no downside to that.

Quote:Also, I imagine life would become cheap, and we would see an increase in many kinds of murder. Substance abuse would rise, probably.

You need to look again at the societal health measures that show that secular societies tend to have fewer problems like that. The evidence is quite against your imagination.

Quote:Q: Why is it important for me that there is objective meaning to the Universe?
A: Because good and evil are defined by that objective meaning. Knowing the objective meaning of the Universe will help us to direct our morals. Not to mention the fact that knowing objective meaning will help lead us closer to the Creator.

Wanting there to be an objective meaning, or a creator, doesn't make it so. You first need to provide evidence that either exists. Until then, your version of the creator sets different rules than somebody else's version of the creator and the world is no closer to resolving difficulties than if people just admitted that we don't know and we need to figure it out for ourselves.

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16-03-2015, 07:23 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 06:05 AM)soul Wrote:  Atheism clearly denounces things...clearly feels religion is a negative....speaks in tones of violated justice...all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God. Atheism gives no explination for evil...(btw I dont bother with spelling...if that bothers you just iggy me)

Evil is a concept invented by man. Religion has been used to justify shitloads of actions that most people would consider as "evil". Would you say that murdering and torturing people because they don't share your faith is evil? Because your religion is guilty of doing such things to countless people throughout history. Or does your religion simply get a free pass for such behavior because it was done in the name of your god?

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16-03-2015, 10:48 PM
RE: evil
Response to EvolutionKills, pgs 24, 27. Trying not to leave anyone out.

(14-03-2015 03:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 01:20 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  "Life meaning?" I would have no life meaning…


The universe doesn't give a shit about you, get used to it. Boohoo! You are insignificant on the scale of the cosmos, and because of that, everything is meaningless! Oh noes! Weeping

Strange. Somehow you appear to have thought I was writing emotionally about this. Boo-hoo? This is a fact. Life would have no meaning in a godless world. This is so simple and basic, and I state it as a fact.

(14-03-2015 03:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Doesn't mean you can't give a shit about yourself. Doesn't mean you can't find meaning in your life or give meaning to those around you.

Well, let's qualify that. It would be more accurate to say that a person would convince themselves that they have meaning, when in reality they are just intensifying their own self-interest, their own emotions, their own legacy.

(14-03-2015 03:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But if you plan on waiting around for something else to hand you meaning, you'll be in for disappointment.

True. Life is what you make of it.

(14-03-2015 03:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But the more you write, the more it looks like you are simply incapable of such insight. Oh well, I guess you're just one of those people who need religion like a crutch, you need the illusion of purpose pre-packaged and delivered for you. Too bad really. Life is a lot more liberating once you take on that responsibility yourself. Drinking Beverage

But the more you write, the more it looks like you are simply incapable of such insight. Oh well, I guess you're just one of those people who need religion like a crutch, you need the illusion of purpose pre-packaged and delivered for you. Too bad really. Life is a lot more liberating once you take on that responsibility yourself. Smile

(14-03-2015 10:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, I guess the idea of 'people doing good in spite of themselves' as a popular and compelling motif is just lost on him... Dodgy

There are many reasons for doing good in spite of yourself. I stated that the two main drivers were because you love the Creator, and because you love His creations, your fellow people. Surely the latter encapsulates "doing good in spite of yourself."

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