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17-03-2015, 06:04 AM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 01:03 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Wrong. We choose to either believe or not believe. We then bolster our belief as time progresses.

I disagree. I didn't choose to stop believing, and I tried for several years to make myself believe again and couldn't.

I do agree about the bolstering part, though. Confirmation bias is a pretty well understood thing.
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17-03-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: evil
It's a form of neurosis or psychosis to talk in absolutist terms such as 'evil'. Religion is totalitarian and like any form of Fascism tends to condemn the perceived outsider as bad and in need of 'cleansing'. Even Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder knew that 'there's good and bad in everyone'.
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19-03-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: evil
Oh my goodness. This thread has so many pages it's overwhelming! I had read this article recently: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismathei...sMoral.htm

I got lost after page 9 of this thread but I'll keep reading and hopefully catch up O_o I'm new to threads so if you have any efficiency tips, please share. This could take me a while...

In the meantime, looking forward to seeing some arguments on both sides being broken down and simplified (hopefully!)
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19-03-2015, 06:42 PM
RE: evil
(19-03-2015 05:39 PM)Suzanne Wrote:  ...
I'm new to threads so if you have any efficiency tips, please share. This could take me a while...
...

I remember that feeling from 3 years ago.

You need to find your own techniques.

Read whatever and how much you want to read but always have in mind one question ... Am I experiencing confirmation bias?

Thumbsup

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19-03-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: evil
(16-03-2015 05:36 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  More from pg 24:

(14-03-2015 02:12 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Laramie, nihilism doesn't mean people stop giving meaning to anything. It specifically means that there is no overarching, objective meaning to the universe. When you partake of nihilism, it doesn't instantly sap all of the meaning people give to the universe. You realize it is you who gives meaning to everything.

Why is important for you for there to be an objective meaning of life/the Universe? Would things turn out differently if there wasn't? How so? I ask because I would like to know.

Correct. In a hypothetically godless universe, meaning is restricted to whatever value people agree upon. Let's suppose that everyone in the world instantaneously decides to give up on religion, and they all become atheist. Tell me, do you think that they will all agree on how laws and ethics should be arranged? Do you honestly think there will not be differences of opinion in that hypothetical atheist universe? Wars will not end if that happened.

Another result of that scenario, I imagine, would be a massive wave of depression among most humans, as people will lose their sense of significance. I'd bet there would be a severe demographic decline, as people would stop having children. Also, I imagine life would become cheap, and we would see an increase in many kinds of murder. Substance abuse would rise, probably.

Q: Why is it important for me that there is objective meaning to the Universe?
A: Because good and evil are defined by that objective meaning. Knowing the objective meaning of the Universe will help us to direct our morals. Not to mention the fact that knowing objective meaning will help lead us closer to the Creator.

I would disagree. Good and evil are defined by people. There isn't an objective definition of evil and good today because people believe in different things. People believe in the Christian God but they believe different things about what is right and wrong. If God exists, he would make it OBVIOUS to everyone instead of leaving it up to interpretation from an old book that has been interpreted and translated and re-authored again and again and again.
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20-03-2015, 02:17 AM
RE: evil
I know I'm skipping ahead of responding to other posters in this thread. It is difficult to keep up with everyone's response to me. So if anyone feels left out or they are still wanting me to address them, please let me know.

That being said, howdy Suzanne.

(19-03-2015 05:39 PM)Suzanne Wrote:  Oh my goodness. This thread has so many pages it's overwhelming! I had read this article recently: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismathei...sMoral.htm

I will respond to some parts of your article now:

Quote:Morally speaking, it really shouldn't matter whether any gods exist or not — the happiness and suffering of others should play an important role in our decision making either way.

It "shouldn't" matter if God exists? Happiness and suffering "should" play a role in decision making?

Should=ought. DLJ and I have already discussed this.

If atheist, if the universe is godless, there is no ought. There is no "should." Why on Earth "should" people do anything for their fellow man at all? Sure, it helps the human race. But who cares? There is no divine guidance for that. There is no divine. There is no guidance. Just the cold void. Strange how that concept of lightless nothingness comforts the atheist.

Quote:So what's the point of being moral if God doesn't exist? It's the same "point" that people should acknowledge if God does exist: because the happiness and suffering of other human beings matter to us such that we should seek, whenever possible, to increase their happiness and decrease their suffering. It's also the "point" that morality is required for human social structures and human communities to survive at all.

Again, who cares if human social structures survive? There is nothing in the void that says that "ought" to happen. And again, with this second paragraph: there's that word "should" again.

If atheist, there is no "should." There is no "ought." The material universe just "is."

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20-03-2015, 02:39 AM
RE: evil
(20-03-2015 02:17 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  ...
If atheist, there is no "should." There is no "ought." The material universe just "is."

Thanks for that. I appreciate that you've changed the way you present this ... away from the implication that "atheists have no morality" to "atheism has no intrinsic moral stance".

Cheers. Thumbsup

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20-03-2015, 03:10 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 06:05 AM)soul Wrote:  Atheism clearly denounces things...clearly feels religion is a negative....speaks in tones of violated justice...all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God. Atheism gives no explination for evil...(btw I dont bother with spelling...if that bothers you just iggy me)

. "Atheism clearly denounces things." - Is there nothing you denounce?
. "clearly feels religion is a negative" - Well, I can't speak for all atheists, But, for me, Yes! stoning people, for example.
. "speaks in tones of violated justice" - I would love to respond to this, but have no clue what it means.
. "all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God." - Again, I don't follow your argument. In fact, I don't even know what you are arguing about!
. "Atheism gives no explination for evil." - " Oh! Shit!!" You got us here! GOD DAMN IT!! Why hadn't I thought of the problem of "evil" before""" Just a stupid atheist! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-hkpqVlYw
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26-03-2015, 07:30 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 06:05 AM)soul Wrote:  Atheism clearly denounces things...clearly feels religion is a negative....speaks in tones of violated justice...all things which it has no logical basis to do following the premise there is no First Cause..or what we theists call God. Atheism gives no explination for evil...(btw I dont bother with spelling...if that bothers you just iggy me)
Ridiculous ideas need to be ridiculed.

Yes I clearly denounce your non-existent god who watches you masturbate and who will burn you in hell for that.
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27-03-2015, 08:32 AM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2015 08:36 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: evil
(20-03-2015 02:17 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  If atheist, there is no "should." There is no "ought." The material universe just "is."

This is another fast-moving thread. Just a couple of quick thoughts from me:
1. If God does not exist our morality is our own. We must decide what is important, and we do decide it.
2. If God does exist then isn't our morality still our own? Are we given this sense of morality for a purpose? If divine command theory is the only morality then there is no "should". There is no "ought". God's morality just "is".
3. Is God's morality "good"? Can we measure it as good, or is it merely defined as good? How do we know it is good?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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