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08-03-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:19 AM)soul Wrote:  ...
Further it shows real irony that you choose the descriptor of abolishonist in your profile when it was Christianity that was the mover and shakers of the emancipation of black slavery.
...

I see you've swallowed that myth too. Take a little dip into the history books.



I asserted nothing regarding nature condemning anything. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I have answered your main objection at least twice already. But I'll repeat...

Quote:Is it? No. Not from a nihilistic perspective. It's neither good nor bad.

Ought it be? I choose to think so. Don't you?
I may have mixed you up sorry....newbieBlush

So who succesfully undermined black slavery then? Communists? Darwinists?

I suppose the abolitionists of the USA during the civil war used no Christian arguments or assumptions? That is a historic fact that they did...not myth. You want me to post the editorials?
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08-03-2015, 11:36 AM
Photo RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:26 AM)soul Wrote:  ...
BTW God is not a creature but the creator...as theists understand it.

Looks like a creature to me.

[Image: creation2.jpg]

[Image: creation2.jpg]
Sure does....but "God" is a specific concept...it is uncreated therefore not a "creature" by definition.
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08-03-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:24 AM)soul Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 10:47 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  No. You borrowed money. Now you have to pay it back. If you don't want to pay it back then you shouldn't have borrowed it.
If you knock on my door to borrow sugar are you now my servant until I get my sugar back. No of course not. That would be an idiotic way of thinking...
Yes just like was said in the bronze age....they called them slaves too...once they borrowed the sugar religion stated they were to be good slaves and pay it back.

You obviously don't know what a slave is.
You see when you ask to borrow my sugar I only agree to give if you agree to return it. That would be a mutual agreement. When you are my slave you don't get to agree or disagree with shit. You get to do whatever the fuck I say you do or I get to beat the shit out of you. I'll be good to go, by the way, as long as you don't die right away...
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08-03-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:40 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:24 AM)soul Wrote:  Yes just like was said in the bronze age....they called them slaves too...once they borrowed the sugar religion stated they were to be good slaves and pay it back.

You obviously don't know what a slave is.
You see when you ask to borrow my sugar I only agree to give if you agree to return it. That would be a mutual agreement. When you are my slave you don't get to agree or disagree with shit. You get to do whatever the fuck I say you do or I get to beat the shit out of you. I'll be good to go, by the way, as long as you don't die right away...
You obviously dont understand there are many kinds of slavery...you describe chattel slavery.
BTW I must do whatever the bank says vis a vis my mortgage or I am out on the street...your simile fails in that losing your home...and not haveing some sugar are from from equal things.

BTW whats wrong with any kind of slavery...its survival of the fittest yes?
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08-03-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:34 AM)soul Wrote:  ...
So who succesfully undermined black slavery then? Communists? Darwinists?

I suppose the abolitionists of the USA during the civil war used no Christian arguments or assumptions? That is a historic fact that they did...not myth. You want me to post the editorials?

You could but don't bother because I'll just volley back with the oh so christian justifications from the time claiming that slavery was sanctioned by the bible.

There were all sorts involved in the abolition movement and too the civil rights movement. Christian leaders, to give them some credit, have always been adept at claiming moral high ground and airbrushing where necessary. A bit like the muslims claiming scientific discoveries in the Quran.


(08-03-2015 11:36 AM)soul Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Looks like a creature to me.

[Image: creation2.jpg]

Sure does....but "God" is a specific concept...it is uncreated therefore not a "creature" by definition.

I define your god as non-existent... by definition.

Your serve.

Nearly 2am here so I'll come back to this later. Please don't just double-fault with unsupported assertions, though, I was enjoying the conversation up til then.

Cheers.

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08-03-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 11:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:34 AM)soul Wrote:  ...
So who succesfully undermined black slavery then? Communists? Darwinists?

I suppose the abolitionists of the USA during the civil war used no Christian arguments or assumptions? That is a historic fact that they did...not myth. You want me to post the editorials?

You could but don't bother because I'll just volley back with the oh so christian justifications from the time claiming that slavery was sanctioned by the bible.

There were all sorts involved in the abolition movement and too the civil rights movement. Christian leaders, to give them some credit, have always been adept at claiming moral high ground and airbrushing where necessary. A bit like the muslims claiming scientific discoveries in the Quran.


(08-03-2015 11:36 AM)soul Wrote:  Sure does....but "God" is a specific concept...it is uncreated therefore not a "creature" by definition.

I define your god as non-existent... by definition.

Your serve.

Nearly 2am here so I'll come back to this later. Please don't just double-fault with unsupported assertions, though, I was enjoying the conversation up til then.

Cheers.
Rejecting my supports for my assertions is not the same thing as not having any I reject many of yours as well but I would not assert you didnt try to support them.
When I was defining God I was simply using it in the technical sense there...if there is a God it could not also be a creature...the law of contridiction I think. Have a good night....sleep well in your meaningless empty void of existence (just a joke)
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08-03-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 09:59 AM)soul Wrote:  If individual and collective humans decide....then if collectively and individually theism would become acceptable...would you accept it?

No. As an individual I can disagree with the majority, at least until they convince me that their position is correct.

Quote:Maybe the reason you theory is not easy to practice is it doesnt fit with reality.

Quite the opposite, Different people have different experiences and values so creating consensus is not easy because of reality. Theism takes the easy way out by declaring morality by fiat.

Quote:The Christian faith expresses eternal truths...

It claims to anyway. I have seen little evidence of anything unique to Christianity that I would call moral.

Quote:what was true in morality in bronze age was true before that and still true today.

In some ways I agree because I am not a moral relativist. On the other hand, morality as presented in the bible is not what I would call moral.

(08-03-2015 10:03 AM)soul Wrote:  My understanding of the central lawgiver isnt an external one....but an internal part of all of us..

To the extent that evolution has provided us a basic sense of fairness and emplathy I agree.

Quote:I profess and expect all humanity to follow basic central tenents because I assume a central code writer.

If that 'code writer' is any sort of intelligent designer, god, being, or whatever name you prefer then it contradicts your claim that it isn't an external one.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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08-03-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 12:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 09:59 AM)soul Wrote:  If individual and collective humans decide....then if collectively and individually theism would become acceptable...would you accept it?

No. As an individual I can disagree with the majority, at least until they convince me that their position is correct.
.
So your agnostic.
Quote:It claims to anyway. I have seen little evidence of anything unique to Christianity that I would call moral.
Hmmm....cant argue with what you say you "see" but I see...the development of sciences and medicine...jurisprudince...the concept of equality between rich and poor...concern for the weak and infirm...loving enemys...property rights...respect for women.

Quote:In some ways I agree because I am not a moral relativist. On the other hand, morality as presented in the bible is not what I would call moral.
What the bible words are and how they are interpreted are completely different matters...obviously you define it in your opinion.

Quote:To the extent that evolution has provided us a basic sense of fairness and empathy I agree..
How does a theory or scientific concept "provide" anything....who wrote evolutions code??

Quote:If that 'code writer' is any sort of intelligent designer, god, being, or whatever name you prefer then it contradicts your claim that it isn't an external one.
No it doesnt because God in our understanding is not located in time and space...otherwise it wouldnt be God.[/b]
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08-03-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 12:44 PM)soul Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 12:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No. As an individual I can disagree with the majority, at least until they convince me that their position is correct.
.
So your agnostic.

Yes. I think you'll find that most atheists are agnostic atheists.

Quote:
Quote:It claims to anyway. I have seen little evidence of anything unique to Christianity that I would call moral.
Hmmm....cant argue with what you say you "see" but I see...the development of sciences and medicine...jurisprudince...the concept of equality between rich and poor...concern for the weak and infirm...loving enemys...property rights...respect for women.

That's just hilarious. Christianity has been a huge roadblock to the sciences and medicine, it's idea of jurisprudence is might make right, property rights are nonexistent, and women are considered property.

There is some lip service in the bible to concern for the poor, weak, and infirm but that has been conveniently ignored or twisted in order to gain and retain power.

Many individual Christians are decent, caring people. From my perspective that is true despite their religion, not because of it.

Quote:
Quote:In some ways I agree because I am not a moral relativist. On the other hand, morality as presented in the bible is not what I would call moral.
What the bible words are and how they are interpreted are completely different matters...obviously you define it in your opinion.

And when you take what's there and "interpret" it to come out the way you want it to be you are using your own moral compass to do so. Chuck the book and start from a clean slate and you'll probably come up with a better system and one that doesn't require so much interpretation.

Quote:
Quote:To the extent that evolution has provided us a basic sense of fairness and empathy I agree..
How does a theory or scientific concept "provide" anything....who wrote evolutions code??

I was talking about the process and evolution, not the theory itself. Your question about "who" is nonsensical. There is no need for a "who".

Quote:
Quote:If that 'code writer' is any sort of intelligent designer, god, being, or whatever name you prefer then it contradicts your claim that it isn't an external one.
No it doesnt because God in our understanding is not located in time and space...otherwise it wouldnt be God.[/b]

Prove it. Saying god is not located in time and space is just hand waving to get around the fact that it is nothing but make believe. Saying "god did it" when you get to something you don't understand is not an answer and doesn't actually explain anything.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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08-03-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: evil
(08-03-2015 08:34 AM)soul Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 06:36 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Of course I have a problem with it.

It's wrong to lie to children, especially when the consequences of lying to them scars them for life.
You have not answered Why it is wrong....without a first cause or Lawgiver you have no basis to say anything is "wrong".

Morals are a human construction -- exactly the same as your god...

Get over it....

Your religion does NOT have the market cornered on "good"...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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