evil and God
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22-06-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 01:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is quoted from another topic: yes, mostly from NT, however Romans 9 is taken from OT.

(23-09-2015 03:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If she tries to argue the point, tell her to read Pro. 16:4, Romans 9, Eph. 1:4-5 and verse 11, Acts 15:17-18, Romans 8:28-30, 1 Cor. 2:7, 2 Thess. 2:13, and 1 Thess. 1:4.

Tell her to read these aloud and try to explain how we can have free will if these verses are true.

The NT references have no meaning to me personally, but I thank you for giving me your reasoning.

I read Romans 9, since you said it comes from the Hebrew Bible, but I couldn't see how it references the lack of free will. Would you mind explaining that?
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22-06-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 02:34 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  I agree with you which is why God will not force one to choose Him.

Because something that does not exist can't force a choice?

(22-06-2016 02:34 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  He will allow man to refuse relationship with Him and live without Him forever.

Is this the same choice that Pharaoh was supposedly allowed? You did read those verses, right? Exodus? Where Pharaoh made the "right" choice and god decided he wanted to kill all those Egyptian babies anyway.

(22-06-2016 02:34 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  By the way, by what basis do you determine what is bad? If there is no God then good is determined by man. Man is selfish so who is to say what man determines as good is good?

According to the bible god is jealous and angry, among other things. Do you really want to start bringing up god's atrocities?

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22-06-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 02:34 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Thank you for discussing with me. I agree with you which is why God will not force one to choose Him. He will allow man to refuse relationship with Him and live without Him forever. By the way, by what basis do you determine what is bad? If there is no God then good is determined by man. Man is selfish so who is to say what man determines as good is good?

If this God is in ultimate control of each person's immortal soul and the only way to insure you don't suffer forever is to "love" him and obey him than that is not a free choice but a fucked up situation where a mad man is holding your eternal life hostage unless you bow to him.

What is "bad" is something that is harmful, it's just that simple. For example, we know rape causes pain and trauma. Logically there are certain actions that cause harm and others that don't cause harm, if you can't see that you lack empathy which some people do. If I punch you in the face that will cause you physical pain and probably some emotional pain as well so it's bad, if I hand you some flowers that will not cause pain, it's a gift and it's good, hopefully you can understand this.

If you knew a woman who was in an abusive marriage and her husband told her that if she loves him she will be treated kindly and with respect but if she doesn't she will be beaten, locked in the basement and forced to starve would you say that is a good thing or a bad thing? According to Christian logic this is fair, she has the free choice, love the abuser and be rewarded or reject him and be punished.

Anyone with any empathy or sense of compassion will know it's wrong to treat someone this way, they don't have to love anyone they don't know much less someone who thinks slavery and rape is just fine. Your God is an abusive asshole who just happens to be very powerful so you have to love him or else, but that's your problem, not mine.

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22-06-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: evil and God
When you make the claim that something exists outside of existence, what you are really saying is that it doesn't exist.

Any defining value you give is coming straight from your imagination, because you can't detect things that don't exist.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-06-2016, 03:37 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 03:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 11:27 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  LMAO. 4 1st Grade questions.
No to all 4.
Completely impossible.
There is no evidence that your special pleading argument ("outside the natural realm") has any validity, AT ALL. If a god *is*, then it's natural for it *to be*. There is no need or evidence for one AT ALL, It's a "made up" concept to answer questions for (stone age) people who NEED answers, and have no others.

If there is a god, why is there a 3 year old dying an agonizing death TODAY, a few floors below me, from cancer ?

"What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?" is the most laughable rationalization I've ever heard. If your stupid powerless god *intends* to stop evil, but can only stop some of it, it's not omnipotent. Do you idiots ever even think about the bullshit that spews from you brains ?

Sorry to hear about the horrible suffering the 3 year old is enduring. How can this suffering however, disprove the existence of God. Choices have consequences even to those not directly responsible for the poor choice.

I am not inferring God could NOT stop all evil, just that it is possible He is preventing much of it and only allowing it to remind humans we are created and under authority of the creator.

The child is INNOCENT. Only a monster would do that to him, and you fucking know that.

Nothing can disprove a god. It's totally unnecessary to even try.
There is not a shred of evidence for any of them.
In fact, we know, from history, where most of them came from, and the people that cooked them up.
None of them are special. Nice rationalization. It fails, and has been known to fail for thousands of years.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

The is no reason to buy into any religious bullshit.
We all know there is no end to the rationalizing nonsense religionists can cook up to try to convince themselves their nonsense could be true.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2016, 04:10 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 01:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is quoted from another topic: yes, mostly from NT, however Romans 9 is taken from OT.

The NT references have no meaning to me personally, but I thank you for giving me your reasoning.

I read Romans 9, since you said it comes from the Hebrew Bible, but I couldn't see how it references the lack of free will. Would you mind explaining that?

Bleh, sorry... most (all) of those verses have to do with predestination, which coincides with the lack of free will; however, I guess, the best OT reference is how God prevented Pharoah from having free will and made him make a choice in the Moses story.

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22-06-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 11:27 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  LMAO. 4 1st Grade questions.
No to all 4.
Completely impossible.
There is no evidence that your special pleading argument ("outside the natural realm") has any validity, AT ALL. If a god *is*, then it's natural for it *to be*. There is no need or evidence for one AT ALL, It's a "made up" concept to answer questions for (stone age) people who NEED answers, and have no others.

If there is a god, why is there a 3 year old dying an agonizing death TODAY, a few floors below me, from cancer ?

"What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?" is the most laughable rationalization I've ever heard. If your stupid powerless god *intends* to stop evil, but can only stop some of it, it's not omnipotent. Do you idiots ever even think about the bullshit that spews from you brains ?

Sorry to hear about the horrible suffering the 3 year old is enduring. How can this suffering however, disprove the existence of God. Choices have consequences even to those not directly responsible for the poor choice.

I am not inferring God could NOT stop all evil, just that it is possible He is preventing much of it and only allowing it to remind humans we are created and under authority of the creator.

Gee. When my phone company wants to remind me that my ADHD kicked in again and I missed a payment, they send a pretty polite letter. It's nice. It spells out all the fees, when I missed it, what my balance is, include a self-addressed envelope, and even print a phone number for contacting customer support if I want to inquire about or contest what's happened. The stationary isn't all that fancy, but they've got a nice colorful letterhead and everything.

THEY DO NOT SEND CANCER. WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF REMINDER IS CANCER?

Also, they send it to me and not some random baby.
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22-06-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 04:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The NT references have no meaning to me personally, but I thank you for giving me your reasoning.

I read Romans 9, since you said it comes from the Hebrew Bible, but I couldn't see how it references the lack of free will. Would you mind explaining that?

Bleh, sorry... most (all) of those verses have to do with predestination, which coincides with the lack of free will; however, I guess, the best OT reference is how God prevented Pharoah from having free will and made him make a choice in the Moses story.

The part where G-d hardens Pharaoh's heart? We understand that differently. We just understand that the pace was quickened, not that Pharaoh didn't choose what he wanted to choose.

I don't think either explanation is provided in the Torah, but the Jewish explanation is in the Talmud.

I appreciate the answer, but I respectfully disagree that any such predestination is brought down in the Hebrew bible, though. I guess you can interpret anything any way you want, but the Jewish explanations for the biblical stories are older than the NT and it's interpretation of our texts.

Again, thanks for the answer. Smile
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22-06-2016, 04:28 PM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 11:51 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  If someone who knows that alcohol consumption in large quantities negatively impacts them yet consume large quantities anyway. They get in their car, drive home, and on the way hit another car and those in the car die from this wreck. The people in the car who was hit by the drunk did nothing wrong yet suffered from the consequences of the drunk. Similarly, man's poor choice in disobeying God has consequential effects, at the core of man's nature which has become corrupt. Would this not provide a reasonable answer to the evil and suffering on our world? God has judged evil in Christ and offers redemption to all who by faith trust in the work of Christ.

No. While it might explain, say, serial killers, it does not explain things that are outside of the chain of causation of human beings. It does not explain cancer in babies or tsunamies that kill millions.

(22-06-2016 12:19 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Perhaps the greater good is not our happiness but knowledge of God. Since man is rebellious, God allows suffering to increase our dependency on Him. Therefore, the benefit of increased knowledge of God is far greater than suffering experienced.

If this is the greater good, then we're faced with a god that is, to all appearances, non-existent, but could make its existence perfectly and indisputably clear to everyone in the world and do so effortlessly, yet chooses not to, AND (in some interpretations of Christianity) damns people to eternal torment for not believing in the face of exactly zero evidence.

... and sends cancer instead of letters.

And then makes it so that the cancer appears to have arisen from purely natural forces without any god having a hand in it at all, thus defeating the entire purpose you propose of demonstrating his existence.

If this is how your god goes about advancing the supposed good of spreading knowledge of himself, he's an inept bungler, on par with such maladroits as Jacque Clouseau and Wile E. Coyote, except his preferred approach is to harm people and fail to accomplish anything by it.

Face it. This god you describe that puts high value on everyone knowing he exists, has the power to demonstrate his existence, and rules a world with little-to-no evidence that he exists? THAT'S SELF-CONTRADICTORY. The god you describe existing would imply the existence of very strong evidence of its existence.

(22-06-2016 01:14 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  He did, yet chose to create anyway. He thought offering redemption to fallen humanity was worth creating man anyway. Since He is God, His ways are beyond our understanding unless He reveals them to us.

If they're beyond your understanding, then why do you keep trying to offer explanations as if you understand them?
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22-06-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: evil and God
(21-06-2016 08:42 PM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Does the existence of evil negate the existence of God? Can they not coexist?

Neither exist.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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