evil and God
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23-06-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 08:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 08:45 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Sorry for the delay. The Kalam Cosmological argument which proposes that anything within the natural realm must adhere to the below--

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning.

Even if we were to accept those premises (it is not certain that we should), that says nothing at all about what form that cause takes.
This type of argument invariably requires other assumptions which have not been justified or even specified.

Quote:Several discoveries determine that universe is expanding which demonstrates it had a beginning.

Not necessarily. It may be an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.

There doesn't appear to be evidence of expansion and contraction, just expansion.

But there are other points you hint at too.
1) The universe may have appear to have an origin, but I have never been able to reconcile a beginning for something before the existence of space and time. Ergo, how does something have a cause for its beginning if there is no time for the cause to occur? (cause and effect only work if there is time to create a cause and produce an effect)
2) a cause need not be conscious or sentient or anything other than a naturally occurring non-god occurrence. If one wants to postulate a god, one needs to define that god as more than just a "first cause"

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23-06-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 08:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 08:45 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Sorry for the delay. The Kalam Cosmological argument which proposes that anything within the natural realm must adhere to the below--

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning.

Even if we were to accept those premises (it is not certain that we should), that says nothing at all about what form that cause takes.
This type of argument invariably requires other assumptions which have not been justified or even specified.

Quote:Several discoveries determine that universe is expanding which demonstrates it had a beginning.

Not necessarily. It may be an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.

Agreed. However, these premises I think point to a cause outside of the natural realm since this cause created the natural realm. That would bring into possibility the existence of the supernatural. Since the supernatural cannot be observed or repeated through our scientific method which can only measure "natural" processes, it should not be discounted. Many possibilities could be derived but the most plausible would be the Abrahamic God and His declaration of creation in Genesis 1.
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23-06-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 08:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Even if we were to accept those premises (it is not certain that we should), that says nothing at all about what form that cause takes.
This type of argument invariably requires other assumptions which have not been justified or even specified.


Not necessarily. It may be an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.

Agreed. However, these premises I think point to a cause outside of the natural realm since this cause created the natural realm. That would bring into possibility the existence of the supernatural. Since the supernatural cannot be observed or repeated through our scientific method which can only measure "natural" processes, it should not be discounted. Many possibilities could be derived but the most plausible would be the Abrahamic God and His declaration of creation in Genesis 1.

How do you know that the cause you appeal to occurred outside the natural realm? What evidence can you present to substantiate the claim that there exists a supernatural realm from which your cause could have originated?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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23-06-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 08:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Even if we were to accept those premises (it is not certain that we should), that says nothing at all about what form that cause takes.
This type of argument invariably requires other assumptions which have not been justified or even specified.


Not necessarily. It may be an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.

Agreed. However, these premises I think point to a cause outside of the natural realm since this cause created the natural realm. That would bring into possibility the existence of the supernatural. Since the supernatural cannot be observed or repeated through our scientific method which can only measure "natural" processes, it should not be discounted. Many possibilities could be derived but the most plausible would be the Abrahamic God and His declaration of creation in Genesis 1.

Say what? You can't just declare that "the most plausible" without providing a reason for that conclusion. How and why is it any more plausible than any other culture's creation myth?
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23-06-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Agreed. However, these premises I think point to a cause outside of the natural realm since this cause created the natural realm.

No. It indicates that at this time our scientific abilities can only take us back to the instant of the Big Bang.
Quote:Extrapolation of the expansion of the universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past.

Link

(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  That would bring into possibility the existence of the supernatural.

Or maybe the universe was shat into existence by Cthulhu. Once you start making shit up, anything is possible.

(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Since the supernatural cannot be observed or repeated through our scientific method which can only measure "natural" processes, it should not be discounted.

Since the supernatural has never been observed or studied through scientific methods, it should automatically be discounted.

(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Many possibilities could be derived but the most plausible would be the Abrahamic God and His declaration of creation in Genesis 1.

Least plausible. Seriously. You go from the god-of-the-gaps fallacy, saying "a god could exist" to "IT WAS MY GAAAWWD!! PRAISE JEEEBUS!!!"

Bullshit.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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23-06-2016, 09:29 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 07:46 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 10:17 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  OP question for you:

Do you accept the Biblical account that Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree and at that point gained knowledge of good and evil?

Yes.

Gee we are sorry.
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23-06-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 09:05 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Agreed. However, these premises I think point to a cause outside of the natural realm since this cause created the natural realm. That would bring into possibility the existence of the supernatural. Since the supernatural cannot be observed or repeated through our scientific method which can only measure "natural" processes, it should not be discounted. Many possibilities could be derived but the most plausible would be the Abrahamic God and His declaration of creation in Genesis 1.

How do you know that the cause you appeal to occurred outside the natural realm? What evidence can you present to substantiate the claim that there exists a supernatural realm from which your cause could have originated?

Wouldn't it be more probable that a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator who has no beginning since He created time, space, and material matter is the cause rather than any other proposition?
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23-06-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:38 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Wouldn't it be more probable that a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator who has no beginning since He created time, space, and material matter is the cause rather than any other proposition?

No.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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23-06-2016, 09:46 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:38 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 09:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you know that the cause you appeal to occurred outside the natural realm? What evidence can you present to substantiate the claim that there exists a supernatural realm from which your cause could have originated?

Wouldn't it be more probable that a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator who has no beginning since He created time, space, and material matter is the cause rather than any other proposition?

Nope. Since everything else we have ever discovered shows us that things we once thought were the actions of intelligent agents (e.g. thunder and lightning, the sun, the seeming cruelty of the ocean to sailors, et cetera) are in fact natural events, it seems most likely that the origin of our universe has a natural cause rather than an intelligent one.

It is very clear that humans like to make up stories about agency, whenever we do not understand something. Your religion is not as different from all the other myth-making human cultures (that you already think are false) as you would like to believe. We can see clearly in your ideas what you already see in the silly ideas of those who think the world is an endless cycle of reincarnation, for instance. There is ZERO reason to believe any part of the universe is caused by some vast, extra-dimensional intelligence manipulating things so those of us on this tiny little rock can have things our way. It's egocentric arrogance and ignorance in a toxic blend.

To my eyes, you are no different than a Norse pantheon-worshiper telling me that the thunderstorm is caused by the anger of Odin.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-06-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: evil and God
(23-06-2016 09:38 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 09:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you know that the cause you appeal to occurred outside the natural realm? What evidence can you present to substantiate the claim that there exists a supernatural realm from which your cause could have originated?

Wouldn't it be more probable that a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator who has no beginning since He created time, space, and material matter is the cause rather than any other proposition?

I want to expand on the two scenarios you are offering up:

Option 1) The universe is a product of natural occurrences.

Option 2) The universe is a product of supernatural occurrences from supernature

All evidence lends credibility to the existence of nature and no evidence exists to corroborate a supernature. Which means that between option 1 and option 2, we can say that option 1 is not only highly probable, there is no reason to assume it is improbable (it's probability is ~100%). As there is no evidence of a supernature or any supernatural occurrences, we can safely say that this option is not only highly improbable, but there is no reason to assume it is even probably (~0%).

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