evil and God
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22-06-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 06:51 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Did God create evil or was it the misuse or deprivation of the good God created?
Who says God HAS to participate in this Reality; instead, could it be He chooses to?

You have not answered our questions.

Define god. The Christian god? Jewish? Muslim? Buddhist? Which god?

Define evil? Evil that humans do to each other? Natural disasters?

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22-06-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: evil and God
(21-06-2016 10:21 PM)Aliza Wrote:  But G-d states very clearly that he creates evil. (Please don't make me look it up. I feel "meh" right now.)

Yep. That's just one of the many contradictions in the Christian bible.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-06-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: evil and God
Would it not lead to reason that since God is outside of the created "natural" realm, that He has to be supernatural and therefore, not detectable by natural means?

Could it be possible that God's gift of free choice to man was poorly exercised by man; while God is divinely perfect man is only creaturely perfect capable of making poor choices?

How would one define morality without an objective source? How could we proclaim God is immoral when He may by working in spite of evil to bring about good?

What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?
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22-06-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: evil and God
An imaginary god does contribute to the amount of harm that humans inflict on others.

Not believing in such things would be a step in reducing the amount of evil in the world.

New bumper sticker
"Battle evil !!! Stop believing in gods."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-06-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Would it not lead to reason that since God is outside of the created "natural" realm, that He has to be supernatural and therefore, not detectable by natural means?
I would agree with this. –And I’m a theist, mind you, but if you imagine something, and then define the parameters for that thing outside of the natural realm, then it stands to reason that it can’t be detected through natural means. But this neither proves or disproves the existence of G-d.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Could it be possible that God's gift of free choice to man was poorly exercised by man; while God is divinely perfect man is only creaturely perfect capable of making poor choices?
This is fairly close to my own belief system. G-d creates good and evil and lets us choose. G-d may make choices that we feel are poor, but he doesn’t much give a shit what we think. G-d decides what’s ultimately in the universe’s best interest and doesn’t really feel inclined to justify those choices to us.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  How would one define morality without an objective source? How could we proclaim God is immoral when He may by working in spite of evil to bring about good?

What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?
This is contradictory to the concept of G-d, as defined by my religion, Judaism. G-d is everything and creates everything including evil. Nothing can ever be outside of G-d’s command and full control.
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22-06-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Would it not lead to reason that since God is outside of the created "natural" realm, that He has to be supernatural and therefore, not detectable by natural means?

Could it be possible that God's gift of free choice to man was poorly exercised by man; while God is divinely perfect man is only creaturely perfect capable of making poor choices?

How would one define morality without an objective source? How could we proclaim God is immoral when He may by working in spite of evil to bring about good?

What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?

LMAO. 4 1st Grade questions.
No to all 4.
Completely impossible.
There is no evidence that your special pleading argument ("outside the natural realm") has any validity, AT ALL. If a god *is*, then it's natural for it *to be*. There is no need or evidence for one AT ALL, It's a "made up" concept to answer questions for (stone age) people who NEED answers, and have no others.

If there is a god, why is there a 3 year old dying an agonizing death TODAY, a few floors below me, from cancer ?

"What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?" is the most laughable rationalization I've ever heard. If your stupid powerless god *intends* to stop evil, but can only stop some of it, it's not omnipotent. Do you idiots ever even think about the bullshit that spews from you brains ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: evil and God
So it seems you are not actually interested in a dialogue. You simply want to ask pseudo-questions as a lead-in to your preaching.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Would it not lead to reason that since God is outside of the created "natural" realm, that He has to be supernatural and therefore, not detectable by natural means?

Reason has nothing to do with it. There is no evidence of any kind for any god.

You are not using reason. You are presupposing god exists and then justifying it with faulty logic.

The natural realm is the default. Anything beyond that, the "supernatural", has never been verified. No two believers can describe the same god, let alone provide evidence that said god exists.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Could it be possible that God's gift of free choice to man was poorly exercised by man; while God is divinely perfect man is only creaturely perfect capable of making poor choices?

So your god created flawed, imperfect creatures, (i.e. humans) and now is going to torture them eternally because they behaved like the flawed, imperfect creatures he created.

And since your god is omnipotent, that means he knew about all this beforehand. Yet he still created these flawed creatures that he knew would fail and knew would be tortured eternally.

That's pretty fucking sadistic, isn't it?

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  How would one define morality without an objective source? How could we proclaim God is immoral when He may by working in spite of evil to bring about good?

Objective morality would apply to god as well as man. According to the Christian bible, god is just as immoral as the men who he supposedly created.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?

Which god? Which evil? What evidence? Drinking Beverage

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22-06-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I would agree with this. –And I’m a theist, mind you, but if you imagine something, and then define the parameters for that thing outside of the natural realm, then it stands to reason that it can’t be detected through natural means. But this neither proves or disproves the existence of G-d.

Once I believed this way as well. That is no longer the case.

If something interacts with our universe, and the effects of that interaction are evidenced, then would you not expect there to be evidence of the cause of the interaction?

It seems to me that this leads you to the god-of-the-gaps, where god is simply a metaphor for something we don't understand.

(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is fairly close to my own belief system. G-d creates good and evil and lets us choose. G-d may make choices that we feel are poor, but he doesn’t much give a shit what we think. G-d decides what’s ultimately in the universe’s best interest and doesn’t really feel inclined to justify those choices to us.

Once again, this sums up what I formerly believed.

(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is contradictory to the concept of G-d, as defined by my religion, Judaism. G-d is everything and creates everything including evil. Nothing can ever be outside of G-d’s command and full control.

Doesn't that mean that god is creating and orchestrating evil as well as good? Not just allowing evil to happen, but actually controlling and participating in it.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-06-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 08:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I would agree with this. –And I’m a theist, mind you, but if you imagine something, and then define the parameters for that thing outside of the natural realm, then it stands to reason that it can’t be detected through natural means. But this neither proves or disproves the existence of G-d.

Once I believed this way as well. That is no longer the case.

If something interacts with our universe, and the effects of that interaction are evidenced, then would you not expect there to be evidence of the cause of the interaction?

It seems to me that this leads you to the god-of-the-gaps, where god is simply a metaphor for something we don't understand.

(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is fairly close to my own belief system. G-d creates good and evil and lets us choose. G-d may make choices that we feel are poor, but he doesn’t much give a shit what we think. G-d decides what’s ultimately in the universe’s best interest and doesn’t really feel inclined to justify those choices to us.

Once again, this sums up what I formerly believed.

(22-06-2016 08:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is contradictory to the concept of G-d, as defined by my religion, Judaism. G-d is everything and creates everything including evil. Nothing can ever be outside of G-d’s command and full control.

Doesn't that mean that god is creating and orchestrating evil as well as good? Not just allowing evil to happen, but actually controlling and participating in it.

Yes, actively orchestrating it, and also letting us choose. Involved, but less involved than I think the Christian G-d is depicted to be. I guess my concept of G-d is a little more like the Force in Star Wars. I've also heard respected Rabbis compare Judaism with the Matrix 1.
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22-06-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 06:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 10:06 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Can an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god exist in world where 'evil' exists? By the definitions of the words, no. A god which knows all and can do all, and is all good, but refuses to stop all that is bad is definitionally self contradictory.

No it isn't definitionally self-contradictory.

The claim that a perfectly Good being would not allow evil to exists, is not objectively true. Therefore can't be self-contradictory.

Maybe you should actually read what you're replying too? Free Thought didn't say good. The word used was "omnibenevolent". It's quite possible to come up with some twisted notion of goodness wherein an individual standing by and doing nothing while immense, unnecessary suffering plays out counts as good. But that would still not count as a perfectly BENEVOLENT being.

(21-06-2016 10:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Aaaaaaaaand I should've had read all the replies.

See? Even your fellow theist understands this principle!

(22-06-2016 06:51 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Did God create evil or was it the misuse or deprivation of the good God created?
Who says God HAS to participate in this Reality; instead, could it be He chooses to?

Ignoring the (already-cited) Biblical passage wherein God SAYS that he created evil, in the (conventional) Abrahamic notion God still designed a world in which evil could exist when, being omnipotent, he might have chosen not to, and being omniscient, he would have know that it would exist, and would have been able to think of something better.

And as I already mentioned, choosing to stand aside and do nothing as others suffer is an indicator of one's level of morality. Obviously an omnipotent god would have a choice, but of those two options (staying out of it and ignoring the suffering, or intervening to mitigate it), the both are not equally good, not by any conventional understanding of the word. ... of course, the Biblical god chooses a third option a lot of the time: directly intervening to CAUSE harm, suffering, and evil.

But wait, I should take a step back here. You never specified WHICH god you were asking about? Is it the Abrahamic god and, if so, of which of the Abrahamic religions? Is it instead the Hindu god, or a deistic god, or what? I'll continue forward assuming the Christian version of the Abrahamic god, simply because demographics favor that for English-speakers talking about free will, but PLEASE clarify this point.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Would it not lead to reason that since God is outside of the created "natural" realm, that He has to be supernatural and therefore, not detectable by natural means?

I reject the exercise of the natural/supernatural dichotomy in its entirety. You're wasting time sorting things into two different categorical buckets when doing so is of no value.

That said, even if God were not directly detectable by our senses or instruments, many of the things credited to God WOULD be. Video cameras, for example, would be more than capable of registering, say, the parting of the Red Sea. The only God we could not register would be one which made no changes that we would notice. To the extent that we could know this god existed at all (rather than just making believe and hoping we guessed right), then there would be evidence and that evidence would be subject to rational, logical analysis, and to the extent that there was no evidence, there would be no cause at all to believe there was a god there. Neither possibility helps the theistic position.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  Could it be possible that God's gift of free choice to man was poorly exercised by man; while God is divinely perfect man is only creaturely perfect capable of making poor choices?

Leaving aside the question of whether free will actually is a thing (and if you want to argue the point, I'll yield the floor to KingsChosen on that topic), and granting all your premises out of charity rather than any merit of the premises themselves, the imperfection of the creation is the responsibility of the creator (especially a perfect creator, who could damn well have done a better job if he chose), both in creating a flawed creation and then, knowing those flaws, still gifting it with an ability that it was ill-suited for.

... also, it's hard to read the Bible and describe the character depicted there as perfect. Jealous, spiteful, wastefully wrathful, punishing many for the misdeeds of a few, concocting poor plans that don't seem to work right... this abstract notion of a perfect god doesn't square with the religion's narrative in the slightest.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  How would one define morality without an objective source? How could we proclaim God is immoral when He may by working in spite of evil to bring about good?

The preferences of a single subjective agent with his own desires, attitudes, bigotries, and agenda would not qualify as an objective source of morality, even if that subjective agent were an omnipotent creator of the universe. Even if the lack of an objective source of morality is a philosophical problem, positing the existence of a god with its own subjective opinions about morality would do nothing to solve it.

(22-06-2016 07:58 AM)godisinspiteofevil Wrote:  What if God then is doing something about evil even restraining most of it?

If he's trying, he's either not trying very hard (which implies unpleasant things about the morals a god who won't, say, prevent a two-year-old child from developing bone cancer, suffering for a year, and dying in agony... or, under some interpretations of the Christian religion, causing the bone cancer to develop in the first place), or he's unable to prevent more than he's preventing (meaning he's not omnipotent), or he's unaware of the evil that he's failing to prevent (meaning he's not omniscient).
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