evil and God
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22-06-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 08:55 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, actively orchestrating it, and also letting us choose. Involved, but less involved than I think the Christian G-d is depicted to be. I guess my concept of G-d is a little more like the Force in Star Wars. I've also heard respected Rabbis compare Judaism with the Matrix 1.

Ok. I appreciate the reply.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-06-2016, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 09:35 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:06 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Maybe you should actually read what you're replying too? Free Thought didn't say good. The word used was "omnibenevolent".

Which just means perfectly good.

[quote]It's quite possible to come up with some twisted notion of goodness wherein an individual standing by and doing nothing while immense, unnecessary suffering plays out counts as good. But that would still not count as a perfectly BENEVOLENT being.

Let's produce the belief: Person A believes: A perfect Good Being, can allow evil to exist in his creation, even while having the means to remove it completely.

Person B Believes: A perfectly Good being would not allow evil to exist in his creation when he has the capacity to remove it completely.

Is one person factually correct, while the other isn't? Is one person objectively wrong, while the other person isn't?

Or would you summarize the difference, not in terms of objective truth, but differences in opinions?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: evil and God
No such thing as "free will". The Bible CLEARLY teaches against it.

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22-06-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No such thing as "free will". The Bible CLEARLY teaches against it.

Can you cite a few examples?
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22-06-2016, 09:42 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 09:51 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 09:06 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Maybe you should actually read what you're replying too? Free Thought didn't say good. The word used was "omnibenevolent".

Which just means perfectly good.

It's quite possible to come up with some twisted notion of goodness wherein an individual standing by and doing nothing while immense, unnecessary suffering plays out counts as good. But that would still not count as a perfectly BENEVOLENT being.

Let's produce the belief: Person A believes: A perfect Good Being, can allow evil to exist in his creation, even while having the means to remove it completely.

Person B Believes: A perfectly Good being would not allow evil to exist in his creation when he has the capacity to remove it completely.

Is one person factually correct, while the other isn't? Is one person objectively wrong, while the other person isn't?

Or would you summarize the difference, not in terms of objective truth, but differences in opinions?

I'd probably explain the difference as the two parties most likely having different definitions of what they mean by the words good and evil.

Let's try a different tack here.

Why would we CARE if God is good or evil, or if any person or any action is good or evil, moral or immoral? I'm not suggesting we shouldn't care, but I think identifying and enumerating some of the reasons that we do care is a very useful step in this sort of discussion. (And if we can't find any reason to care, we can at least save ourselves the time of discussing it.)

EDIT: Also, curse your bad quote-tags screwing up my reply.
2nd EDIT: Also, from wikitionary: A disposition towards an (undefined) goodness is one of 4 definitions of benevolence. The others are: Possessing or manifesting love for mankind; altruistic, charitable, good, just and fair; and generous. Unless you wish to suggest that your god's benevolence does NOT included love for mankind, altruism, charity, or generosity, you've still got a problem here.
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22-06-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:42 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'd probably explain the difference as the two parties most likely having different definitions of what they mean by the words good and evil.

And I'm inclined to agreed with you, if both parties have differing definitions of the meaning of perfectly Good and evil, as is likely to be the case when one party might subscribe to consequentialism, and the other to some versions of virtue ethics. How can one party claim that by definition that other party is incorrect?

They can't really. They'd just have to acknowledge the differing definitions of what Good and Evil mean, and leave it at that.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:42 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Let's try a different tack here.

Why would we CARE if God is good or evil, or if any person or any action is good or evil, moral or immoral?

I submit that until such a being is proven to exist that being is irrelevant to discussions of morality.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-06-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 09:42 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'd probably explain the difference as the two parties most likely having different definitions of what they mean by the words good and evil.

And I'm inclined to agreed with you, if both parties have differing definitions of the meaning of perfectly Good and evil, as is likely to be the case when one party might subscribe to consequentialism, and the other to some versions of virtue ethics. How can one party claim that by definition that other party is incorrect?

They can't really. They'd just have to acknowledge the differing definitions of what Good and Evil mean, and leave it at that.

They might not come to agree on definitions, but they can parse through the separate meanings and have a conversation about the concepts underlying them (which is really the point, isn't it?), even if they don't agree on whether particular words describe those concepts.

And the first step in that, I think, is identifying why we care about good/evil, morality/immorality. So what reasons do we have for caring?

(22-06-2016 09:54 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 09:42 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Let's try a different tack here.

Why would we CARE if God is good or evil, or if any person or any action is good or evil, moral or immoral?

I submit that until such a being is proven to exist that being is irrelevant to discussions of morality.

Then feel free to strike the God part of the question and answer the "any person" part of the question.
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22-06-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:54 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 09:42 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Let's try a different tack here.

Why would we CARE if God is good or evil, or if any person or any action is good or evil, moral or immoral?

I submit that until such a being is proven to exist that being is irrelevant to discussions of morality.

Being that often times when dealing with morality we discuss hypotheticals, and even in regards to fictional characters, that discussions of what's good or not, are not dependent on a person or action being historical.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: evil and God
(22-06-2016 09:56 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Then feel free to strike the God part of the question and answer the "any person" part of the question.

Okay.

Quote:Why would we CARE if any person or any action is good or evil, moral or immoral?

We care about another person's actions because of the effects that they have on ourselves, other people and the environment around us.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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