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27-08-2013, 08:08 PM
RE: evolution
Dear OP

(Organism + mutation) x reproduction= evolution

God doesn't enter the equation that's all you need to explain, if they can't get that, oh well.
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27-08-2013, 08:10 PM
RE: evolution
(27-08-2013 07:58 PM)theword Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 09:01 AM)bustead Wrote:  In a heated debate, a theist said that "God modified earth's enviroment and mutations in organisms from time to time to force organisms to envolve to what he wanted them to be. So even if evolution is correct, it will still prove that christianity is right."

What should I say to him?
(please forgive my spelling mistakes. I am not an american and I got Dysgraphia)
God did not force anything to evolve. This cannot be found anywhere n the Bible. Palin and simple... evolution does not exist. It did not exist then, and it does not exist now. There is absolutely no proof of evolution. Rest assured, man did not form from a rock, a creature form the sea, or an ape- an no one has any proof of that.

We have mountains of evidence that you refuse to look at.

There is no evidence for creationism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-08-2013, 08:58 PM
RE: evolution
(27-08-2013 08:08 PM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  Dear OP

(Organism + mutation) x reproduction= evolution

God doesn't enter the equation that's all you need to explain, if they can't get that, oh well.
Sorry you are wrong. There is absolutely no proof of that,
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28-08-2013, 04:29 PM
RE: evolution
(27-08-2013 08:58 PM)theword Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 08:08 PM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  Dear OP

(Organism + mutation) x reproduction= evolution

God doesn't enter the equation that's all you need to explain, if they can't get that, oh well.
Sorry you are wrong. There is absolutely no proof of that,

You don't see the evidence because you refuse to look at it.

You just keep repeating your same tired, ignorant denial. You are intellectually dishonest.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: evolution
(27-08-2013 07:58 PM)theword Wrote:  God did not force anything to evolve.
Individual organisms don't evolve.
The process of miosis and resultant homologous recombination is what can result in genetic variation within offspring of organisms that participate in sexual reproduction.
In English
It seems that it is impossible to copy information perfectly (there is always the possibility of error). This imperfect copy process applies to DNA replication from parents to offspring thus offspring are susceptible to DNA errors. The offspring are the sum of halves of each parent + some errors.
Only some of the offspring will themselves reproduce. This is because some errors are not conducive to life therefore offspring miscarry, or die young. Or because some offspring are less likely to survive in a herd of their own kind, e.g. the slowest antelope gets eaten. Or because the weakest, or ugliest or other don't get the opportunity to mate with a partner.
But because of this selective process then those mistakes that provide advantages are selected to remain in the gene pool and possibly spread to many other organisms in that species. Whereas those that provide significant disadvantages are deselected and thus removed from the gene pool.
It's a fascinating process, but extremely logical and easy to understand by people with at least a moderate level of intelligence and no belief barrier to accepting this plausibly likely and evidentially supported theory.
I think what is key to understanding evolution is the process of reproduction with error and the process of selection.
It is also key to understand that there is no "essential" human. We are all deviations from an "essential" human. Just as there is no "essential" homo erectus. An individual homo erectus never gave birth to an individual homo sapien. The naming classifications are purely arbitrary. Each parent can reproduce with their offspring's generation, meaning they are always of the same species. This means the delineation of different species (so genetically different that are unable to produce offspring) is relative to the individual. Even though you are able to procreate with the generation of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. You would find that he can procreate further down the ancestral chain than you can. Whereas you can procreate further up the chain than can he.
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28-08-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: evolution
(27-08-2013 07:58 PM)theword Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 09:01 AM)bustead Wrote:  In a heated debate, a theist said that "God modified earth's enviroment and mutations in organisms from time to time to force organisms to envolve to what he wanted them to be. So even if evolution is correct, it will still prove that christianity is right."

What should I say to him?
(please forgive my spelling mistakes. I am not an american and I got Dysgraphia)
God did not force anything to evolve. This cannot be found anywhere n the Bible. Palin and simple... evolution does not exist. It did not exist then, and it does not exist now. There is absolutely no proof of evolution. Rest assured, man did not form from a rock, a creature form the sea, or an ape- an no one has any proof of that.

Is there an out of date political joke going on I can't quite grasp?

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29-08-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: evolution
(28-08-2013 07:56 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 07:58 PM)theword Wrote:  God did not force anything to evolve. This cannot be found anywhere n the Bible. Palin and simple... evolution does not exist. It did not exist then, and it does not exist now. There is absolutely no proof of evolution. Rest assured, man did not form from a rock, a creature form the sea, or an ape- an no one has any proof of that.

Is there an out of date political joke going on I can't quite grasp?
Good eye, it is a typo. Should be plain and simple.
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29-08-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: evolution
(28-08-2013 07:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 07:58 PM)theword Wrote:  God did not force anything to evolve.
Individual organisms don't evolve.
The process of miosis and resultant homologous recombination is what can result in genetic variation within offspring of organisms that participate in sexual reproduction.
In English
It seems that it is impossible to copy information perfectly (there is always the possibility of error). This imperfect copy process applies to DNA replication from parents to offspring thus offspring are susceptible to DNA errors. The offspring are the sum of halves of each parent + some errors.
Only some of the offspring will themselves reproduce. This is because some errors are not conducive to life therefore offspring miscarry, or die young. Or because some offspring are less likely to survive in a herd of their own kind, e.g. the slowest antelope gets eaten. Or because the weakest, or ugliest or other don't get the opportunity to mate with a partner.
But because of this selective process then those mistakes that provide advantages are selected to remain in the gene pool and possibly spread to many other organisms in that species. Whereas those that provide significant disadvantages are deselected and thus removed from the gene pool.
It's a fascinating process, but extremely logical and easy to understand by people with at least a moderate level of intelligence and no belief barrier to accepting this plausibly likely and evidentially supported theory.
I think what is key to understanding evolution is the process of reproduction with error and the process of selection.
It is also key to understand that there is no "essential" human. We are all deviations from an "essential" human. Just as there is no "essential" homo erectus. An individual homo erectus never gave birth to an individual homo sapien. The naming classifications are purely arbitrary. Each parent can reproduce with their offspring's generation, meaning they are always of the same species. This means the delineation of different species (so genetically different that are unable to produce offspring) is relative to the individual. Even though you are able to procreate with the generation of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. You would find that he can procreate further down the ancestral chain than you can. Whereas you can procreate further up the chain than can he.
DNA supports creation more than it does evolution. DNA suggests that everything is unique- just like God made it. DNA also suggests information- this is something that you absolutely positively cannot get from nothing. One of the many things you evolutionists either ignore or cannot understand.
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29-08-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: evolution
(29-08-2013 07:52 AM)theword Wrote:  
(28-08-2013 07:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Individual organisms don't evolve.
The process of miosis and resultant homologous recombination is what can result in genetic variation within offspring of organisms that participate in sexual reproduction.
In English
It seems that it is impossible to copy information perfectly (there is always the possibility of error). This imperfect copy process applies to DNA replication from parents to offspring thus offspring are susceptible to DNA errors. The offspring are the sum of halves of each parent + some errors.
Only some of the offspring will themselves reproduce. This is because some errors are not conducive to life therefore offspring miscarry, or die young. Or because some offspring are less likely to survive in a herd of their own kind, e.g. the slowest antelope gets eaten. Or because the weakest, or ugliest or other don't get the opportunity to mate with a partner.
But because of this selective process then those mistakes that provide advantages are selected to remain in the gene pool and possibly spread to many other organisms in that species. Whereas those that provide significant disadvantages are deselected and thus removed from the gene pool.
It's a fascinating process, but extremely logical and easy to understand by people with at least a moderate level of intelligence and no belief barrier to accepting this plausibly likely and evidentially supported theory.
I think what is key to understanding evolution is the process of reproduction with error and the process of selection.
It is also key to understand that there is no "essential" human. We are all deviations from an "essential" human. Just as there is no "essential" homo erectus. An individual homo erectus never gave birth to an individual homo sapien. The naming classifications are purely arbitrary. Each parent can reproduce with their offspring's generation, meaning they are always of the same species. This means the delineation of different species (so genetically different that are unable to produce offspring) is relative to the individual. Even though you are able to procreate with the generation of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. You would find that he can procreate further down the ancestral chain than you can. Whereas you can procreate further up the chain than can he.
DNA supports creation more than it does evolution. DNA suggests that everything is unique- just like God made it. DNA also suggests information- this is something that you absolutely positively cannot get from nothing. One of the many things you evolutionists either ignore or cannot understand.

What do you mean? We get order from chaos all of the time. Every atom, every molecule, every crystal, every solar system, every galaxy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: evolution
(29-08-2013 07:52 AM)theword Wrote:  DNA supports creation more than it does evolution. DNA suggests that everything is unique- just like God made it.
Problem is, the uniqueness aspect also supports evolution so that aspect isn't evidence for either one.

The mutation process is interesting though. If each individual was created by god then this means god is a poor copier. S/he makes many mistakes. Some which result in miscarriage for about 50% of pregnancies. What's the point in that? Where is the divine purpose? That's so dumb for an intelligent designer. You would think it would learn to correct that issue.

But the mutations and the DNA are crucial to evolution Theory. If there wasn't DNA, if there wasn't mutations then evolution theory would be falsified.

(29-08-2013 07:52 AM)theword Wrote:  DNA also suggests information- this is something that you absolutely positively cannot get from nothing.
It has been proven that information such as the ever increasing DNA is an emergent property of evolution. We have so much junk in our DNA, exposing many of our ancestral properties, but many of these are broken and lingure, it shows no sign of design, but instead provides much evidence for a progressive, stepwise evolution of species.
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