faith of the founding fathers
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19-05-2012, 07:47 PM
faith of the founding fathers
Hey everyone!

I need some reccomendations. I now work for an individual of faith. yesterday the topic of faith came up and he started off on the whole "This is america and its a christian nation and the founders were christian and blah blah blah..." Of course I know he was wrong, but I realized I didn't have a lot to say on the subject. I spend most of my time reading about the fallacies of religion itself and the science behind the natural world that continues to force 'god' into a smaller hole, bringing religion closer and closer to being completely obsolete. I need recommendations of resources that talk about the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. I am trying to find something more substantial than random quotes to make the case, as i would like to truly educate myself on the topic so that the next time he starts slinging his god=country crap I can smash his face in with facts and mop the floor with the tears he will shed over the death of his arguments.

Thanks guys!!
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19-05-2012, 08:25 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
(19-05-2012 07:47 PM)lordsunny Wrote:  Hey everyone!

I need some reccomendations. I now work for an individual of faith. yesterday the topic of faith came up and he started off on the whole "This is america and its a christian nation and the founders were christian and blah blah blah..." Of course I know he was wrong, but I realized I didn't have a lot to say on the subject. I spend most of my time reading about the fallacies of religion itself and the science behind the natural world that continues to force 'god' into a smaller hole, bringing religion closer and closer to being completely obsolete. I need recommendations of resources that talk about the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. I am trying to find something more substantial than random quotes to make the case, as i would like to truly educate myself on the topic so that the next time he starts slinging his god=country crap I can smash his face in with facts and mop the floor with the tears he will shed over the death of his arguments.

Thanks guys!!

Good luck with your plan.

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19-05-2012, 08:32 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
(19-05-2012 08:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  HAHA! Not a concern, I'm in the military, he literally can't fire me... Worst case: I get my ass chewed for something un related to this topic. I've had my ass chewed before...
(19-05-2012 07:47 PM)lordsunny Wrote:  Hey everyone!

I need some reccomendations. I now work for an individual of faith. yesterday the topic of faith came up and he started off on the whole "This is america and its a christian nation and the founders were christian and blah blah blah..." Of course I know he was wrong, but I realized I didn't have a lot to say on the subject. I spend most of my time reading about the fallacies of religion itself and the science behind the natural world that continues to force 'god' into a smaller hole, bringing religion closer and closer to being completely obsolete. I need recommendations of resources that talk about the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. I am trying to find something more substantial than random quotes to make the case, as i would like to truly educate myself on the topic so that the next time he starts slinging his god=country crap I can smash his face in with facts and mop the floor with the tears he will shed over the death of his arguments.

Thanks guys!!

Good luck with your plan.

Useful research can be found at:
www. looking for a new job after I hitchslapped my boss . com
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19-05-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
(19-05-2012 08:32 PM)lordsunny Wrote:  HAHA! Not a concern, I'm in the military, he literally can't fire me... Worst case: I get my ass chewed for something un related to this topic. I've had my ass chewed before...
Ass-chewing is obviously big in the US military. Good to know they are taking a more liberal view on that kinda thing.

To answer your original request for info about your "christian nation", I think the Treaty of Tripoli would be a good place to start... categorically stating that the USA is NOT a christian nation.

See link to a Hitchens article citing many of his sources... could be a good checklist for you...
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_ur...erson.html

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19-05-2012, 10:20 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
The USA is not a christian nation but a lot of the founding fathers were believers in one way or another. The important part is that they knew the only way to secure religious freedom for all was to ensure that no religion was endorsed or supported by the government. This ensured that one protestant sect couldn't control the government of one area and persecute any who would settle in that area of another religious belief, or lack thereof.

I know numerous arguments exist for Jefferson, Franklin, and some of the others being atheists, but unfortunately I don't think that is a fair conclusion. They probably did believe on some level (Jefferson ripped up his bible to get rid of the stuff he considered silly but apparently saw fit to actually leave bits in) something close to the christian idea of god and/or some deistic view. The fact that they held personal views of such a nature are irrelevant though, they didn't make the bible important, and the Magan Carta explicitly says that the US is not in any way founded on the Christian belief system. The beliefs of the founding fathers on a personal level is irrelevant, I mean most owned slaves too but that doesn't mean that is a right given to us as Americans since the founding fathers believed in it.

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19-05-2012, 11:08 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2012 11:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: faith of the founding fathers
(19-05-2012 07:47 PM)lordsunny Wrote:  Hey everyone!

I need some reccomendations. I now work for an individual of faith. yesterday the topic of faith came up and he started off on the whole "This is america and its a christian nation and the founders were christian and blah blah blah..." Of course I know he was wrong, but I realized I didn't have a lot to say on the subject. I spend most of my time reading about the fallacies of religion itself and the science behind the natural world that continues to force 'god' into a smaller hole, bringing religion closer and closer to being completely obsolete. I need recommendations of resources that talk about the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. I am trying to find something more substantial than random quotes to make the case, as i would like to truly educate myself on the topic so that the next time he starts slinging his god=country crap I can smash his face in with facts and mop the floor with the tears he will shed over the death of his arguments.

Thanks guys!!


There is a rather complete thread on this topic somewhere around here, I think. I'll look for it.

Meanwhile, you could start with the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, which states:


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

It was written by the Washington Administration, and submitted to the Senate by John Adams, and unanimously ratified. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Google the other Founding Fathers. Jefferson was NOT a "christian" in any traditional sense, and if you go to Montecello, you can see he actually cut out passages from the Bible he didn't like. There are holes in the pages.

There are more things here, including a long video. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ian+nation

Here's the thing I was thinking of, which Quisdane posted :
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ian+nation
That should be enough for a fine smashing and mopping. Let us know how it goes. Tongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-05-2012, 08:21 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
(19-05-2012 07:47 PM)lordsunny Wrote:  Hey everyone!

I need some reccomendations. I now work for an individual of faith. yesterday the topic of faith came up and he started off on the whole "This is america and its a christian nation and the founders were christian and blah blah blah..." Of course I know he was wrong, but I realized I didn't have a lot to say on the subject. I spend most of my time reading about the fallacies of religion itself and the science behind the natural world that continues to force 'god' into a smaller hole, bringing religion closer and closer to being completely obsolete. I need recommendations of resources that talk about the religious beliefs of the founding fathers. I am trying to find something more substantial than random quotes to make the case, as i would like to truly educate myself on the topic so that the next time he starts slinging his god=country crap I can smash his face in with facts and mop the floor with the tears he will shed over the death of his arguments.

Thanks guys!!
I'd start with Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists at this link: http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

Maybe go on to Treaty of Tripoli from from 1797 which includes the following:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen
[Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of
hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the
parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever
produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two
countries.


Unless he tries to claim that Washington and Jefferson were not founding fathers, I'd say that should be a good start to shutting his pie hole.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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23-05-2012, 03:32 AM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
Here, this is the best and the only evidence you will ever need and I am 100% sure that your superior did not read it ever in his life, but you should and just quote it whenever there is need for it...

The Constitution of the USA.

http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm

Now, if you were a Christian nation, I think that would be mentioned somewhere in the Constitution, but since there is not a single reference to "God", "Religion" and/or "Christianity", you can use it pretty sure as evidence for a secular state.

This Constitution thing should be the prime weapon for every American against ignorance and false statements.

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23-05-2012, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 04:23 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: faith of the founding fathers
Have you seen the letter that has come to light from George Washington to the Jewish community in Rhode Island. Maybe THIS will shut 'em up.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/30...-question/

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...gotry.html

"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens."

Bowing

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-05-2012, 01:59 AM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
When someone read Constitution of the USA, or some of it's amendments, you have to be amazed at the perfection and equality that those laws were written. If any country were to really follow this, it would be the greatest country in the world, unfortunately, USA is doing everything it can to forget about these prime-laws and lets all sorts of stupidity to rule and to push their imaginary idiocracy instead of the written words of their own founding fathers. Real shame.

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